D&D 5E Clerics of Life: Broken, Bad Design, or Working as Intended?

[PnPgamer]

Thanks for Zardnaar for answering to ExploderWizard on my behalf.
My dm did not allow goodberry + life cleric combo, and i agree with him for obvious imbalance reasons.
Just wanted to bring the combo up, as it is allowed by raw, and seemingly rai as well.
Funny that in 5e goodberry creates those berries, as previous editions it was so that you had to bless existing berries with natures power. I might remember wrong though.

 

[Tormyr]

It would appear not as blessed healer specifically says when you cast a spell.

As opposed to when the player uses a spell?

Disciple of Life: Whenever you use a spell of 1st level or higher to restore hit points to a creature, the creature regains additional hit points equal to 2 + the spell's level.
Blessed Healer: When you cast a spell of 1st level or higher that restores hit points to a creature other than you, you regain hit points equal to 2 + the spell's level.

I am not sure how one would use a spell other than to cast it.

Goodberry: Up to ten berries appear in your hand and are infused with magic for the duration. A creature can use its action to eat one berry.

There are several odd things with this combination of Goodberry and Disciple of Life.
1. The character is using the spell to make berries not restore hit points to a character.
2. Disciple of Life references healing spells.
3. Healing spells are evocation not transmutation.
4. The wording of Disciple of Life and Blessed Healer are almost identical but have different results (one gives bonus healing, the other does not).

So, odd, but oh well.

 

[Pickles JG]

I would say that this is an extension of the "bonuses from the same type of source do not stack." That is listed under "Combining Magical Effects" in the PHB. So 10 Paladins clustered do not each give each other the additional +1 to saving throws from the stacked auras, but a Paladin could have +1 from his aura, +1 from a ring of protection, +1 from a different kind of source, etc.

The heading may say "magical effects" but the text only talks about spells. In any case there is nothing to say the paladin aura is magical.

Technically the Aura of Hate says that you can only benefit from this aura from one paladin at a time. It leaves open getting benefits from other paladin auras. This puts it in line with the Combining Magical Effects section in the PHB.

See previous. I also could not find any phb reference to aura stacking but the save on e is the only relevant one

As opposed to when the player uses a spell?

Disciple of Life: Whenever you use a spell of 1st level or higher to restore hit points to a creature, the creature regains additional hit points equal to 2 + the spell's level.
Blessed Healer: When you cast a spell of 1st level or higher that restores hit points to a creature other than you, you regain hit points equal to 2 + the spell's level.

I am not sure how one would use a spell other than to cast it.

Goodberry: Up to ten berries appear in your hand and are infused with magic for the duration. A creature can use its action to eat one berry.

There are several odd things with this combination of Goodberry and Disciple of Life.
1. The character is using the spell to make berries not restore hit points to a character.
2. Disciple of Life references healing spells.
3. Healing spells are evocation not transmutation.
4. The wording of Disciple of Life and Blessed Healer are almost identical but have different results (one gives bonus healing, the other does not).

So, odd, but oh well.

You cast Goodberry when you summon 10 magic berries. You use it to restore hit points when someone eats a berry. Seems super clear.

Similarly the Aura spell that heals once a round.

Probably the most egregious use of multiclassing to date and one I would "actively discourage".

Edit I only just noticed this was 3 Tormyr quotes not stalking you or anything


Also druid1 life cleric 1 sorcerer 3 warlock 2 bard lore 6 for spamming quickened eldritch blast plus uber healing .

 

[Zardnaar]

As opposed to when the player uses a spell?

Disciple of Life: Whenever you use a spell of 1st level or higher to restore hit points to a creature, the creature regains additional hit points equal to 2 + the spell's level.
Blessed Healer: When you cast a spell of 1st level or higher that restores hit points to a creature other than you, you regain hit points equal to 2 + the spell's level.

I am not sure how one would use a spell other than to cast it.

Goodberry: Up to ten berries appear in your hand and are infused with magic for the duration. A creature can use its action to eat one berry.

There are several odd things with this combination of Goodberry and Disciple of Life.
1. The character is using the spell to make berries not restore hit points to a character.
2. Disciple of Life references healing spells.
3. Healing spells are evocation not transmutation.
4. The wording of Disciple of Life and Blessed Healer are almost identical but have different results (one gives bonus healing, the other does not).

So, odd, but oh well.

`
Goodberry lasts 24 hours and not while the spell is cast as casting the spell doesn't heal anything when you cast blessed healer.

 

[Pickles JG]

This is particularly bad in D&D5.

Not quite. My assertion was that if a party is built around a Cleric of Life, and the Cleric of Life is removed mid-battle, that the party is doomed. I admit to some hyperbole, but for the sake of clarity I don't think you /need/ a Cleric of Life to play D&D5.

Between healing surges and second winds and total regeneration after a long rest, I have to disagree.

It being pretty dumb is all the excuse any dungeon master needs. It fails the sniff test from a mile off. Gone are the days when "the book says" was justification for any crap the player wanted to pull.

Again sounds like 4e. I am glad some e stuff got in this edition. ..

The things you overnight recovery etc happen betwen encounters while you were speifically talking about a situation in an encounter. In an encounter is where having a healer or not makes most difference in 4e, because everyone heals outside them anyway as you point out.

Anyway I am in agreement with you other than you seeming to say you could not make an unkilablw party in 4e by applying life style clerics.

 

[I'm A Banana]

Yeah, my reading of the goodberry shenanigans:

When you cast the spell, you create berries. The berries then heal hp when eaten.

Disciple of Life and Blessed Healer both specify "when you cast a spell that restores hit points." That doens't include Goodberry, since when you cast goodberry you create berries, you don't restore hit points.

If the features said "when you cast a spell that creates berries," that'd be a different (and weirder) story, or if Goodberry specified that casting the spell is what healed the hit points rather than specified that casting the spell creates berries, that might be different.

Goodberry is a spell that creates berries, not a spell that restores hit points (even if its ultimate function is still to restore hit points).

 

[ExploderWizard]

Goodberry is a spell that creates berries, not a spell that restores hit points (even if its ultimate function is still to restore hit points).

Actually, the main ultimate function is to nourish a creature for 24 hours with a single berry. The curing of a single hit point is a small side effect of that.

 

[S_Dalsgaard]

Actually, the main ultimate function is to nourish a creature for 24 hours with a single berry. The curing of a single hit point is a small side effect of that.

That is how I read the spell as well.

 

[Tormyr]

The heading may say "magical effects" but the text only talks about spells. In any case there is nothing to say the paladin aura is magical.



See previous. I also could not find any phb reference to aura stacking but the save on e is the only relevant one



You cast Goodberry when you summon 10 magic berries. You use it to restore hit points when someone eats a berry. Seems super clear.

Similarly the Aura spell that heals once a round.

Probably the most egregious use of multiclassing to date and one I would "actively discourage".

Edit I only just noticed this was 3 Tormyr quotes not stalking you or anything


Also druid1 life cleric 1 sorcerer 3 warlock 2 bard lore 6 for spamming quickened eldritch blast plus uber healing .

I think they realized the problem with people potentially stacking the +1 saving throw aura and wrote the Aura of Hate accordingly. But if the paladin's auras are not magical, what are they? Practically every special ability from spells, to ki to many class features are magical. It is a small miracle that good creatures don't fart rainbows and evil creatures poisonous clouds. (What, there are spells for those?! Never mind then. )

The first page for the Paladin mentions that even more impressive than its martial prowess is its magical abilities: abilities to heal, smite, or protect the innocent and its allies. The auras fit in that last item.

As for the Goodberry / Life Cleric thing, it still doesn't pass the smell test for me. Disciple of Life specifically says that it is used when you use a healing spell. Goodberry is a transmutation spell. The healing does not come from when the character uses the spell. It comes when another creature uses its action to eat the berry, and at that point, the spell is dead and gone. Only the charged berries remain. Healing Word, Cure Wounds, Heal, and the Mass version of each fit the bill.

We both seem to think the usage is fairly ridiculous anyway, so the semantics probably don't matter.

 

[Agamon]

Not quite. My assertion was that if a party is built around a Cleric of Life, and the Cleric of Life is removed mid-battle, that the party is doomed. I admit to some hyperbole, but for the sake of clarity I don't think you /need/ a Cleric of Life to play D&D5.

Can we then agree that, regardless of clerics, lazy, unadaptable, and unprepared players are doomed to failure?