Clerics, or can we do without them...

[Trainz@work]

I was reading the "DM can't get the hang of high-level play" thread, and it got me thinkin'...

We finished playing, last month, a very long campaign. We played from 1st to 20th level (with the advent of 3.5, our DM decided to stop it there and restart a new campaign when 3.5 gets here). We were a 3 PC party: Fighter, Arcane Archer, and Cleric.

Most of the time, the cleric was curing the party, casting dispel magic, casting invisibility purge... basically, beeing on the defensive. The fact is, he never got an opportunity to really shine, beeing so busy extinguishing fires.

Now, how about a non-cleric party. Is it feasible ? I would hate to think that, in order to play D&D, someone MUST play a cleric. I want my players to play the class they want to play.

"You could always have an NPC cleric in the party"

Yeah... been there done that. Don't like it.

 

[A'koss]

The cleric is just so damn useful that it really is hard to do without one.

But, if healing magic is made readily (and inexpensively) available through other means (potions, misc. items) you should do fine so long as you have another strong spellcaster in the party (pure wiz/sor/dru). With such a small party though you're always going to have a guy playing a heavy defensive (dispels, invis. purges, barriers) role. You could create items so that the other PCs can take up some of these chores at middle levels and higher - which is probably a good way to go regardless...

Another route you could go is to change a few of the rules so that PCs heal faster (positive HPs heal hourly vs. daily) taking some of the burden off the cleric and letting him get in the mix a little more.


A'koss.

 

[Jürgen Hubert]

How about having a druid in the party instead of a cleric? He can still cure others - but that's not the only thing he can do, and shapeshifting and wilderness stuff can allow him to shine on his own...

 

[dave_o]

Why does everyone always overlook the Heal skill?

I mean, you don't NEED magic to heal people.

It just makes it a lot easier, scar-free, and without permanant damage.

But with Epic rules, you can Heal someone perfectly at a DC which is realatively easy to achieve.

So you don't need a Cleric - just some ranks in Heal.

 

[Trainz@work]

How about having a druid in the party instead of a cleric? He can still cure others - but that's not the only thing he can do, and shapeshifting and wilderness stuff can allow him to shine on his own...

Yup. I thought about that, and that is probably the only viable option open to the players.

Thanks also for the input A'Koss.

 

[Someone]

Clerics have some really useful spells, specially divinations, but they are truly needed for healing between fights. A bard, paladin, ranger or rogue of enought level can use wands of cure light wounds and solve that problem.

 

[Buttercup]

Now, how about a non-cleric party. Is it feasible ?

It is, but you have to make some adjustments.

In my previous campaign, there was no cleric. The party picked up a druid after a while, but they all managed to survive without healing magic for 4 levels.

In my current campaign, again there is no cleric. There is one bard, so again they are not totally bereft of healing magic, but one bard for 7 PCs isn't much healing.

So what I've done is come up with cheap substances that heal small numbers of hit points, and can be purchased from herbalists, alchemists, old crones and the like. They have found several potions of CLW so far, and if the party ever does a favor for a temple, I'll give them a wand of cure light wounds as a reward. Obviously these solutions won't be sufficient when (if!) they get to higher levels, but by that time, the party makeup may change, or I may come up with something else.

Healer's Tea: 10 gold for enough tea to make 4 doses. Each dose heals 1d4 hit points. Available at most dry goods stores, herbalist's shops, and even taverns. Once you have the herbs, anyone who can boil water can make a pot of this tea. One mug of the tea is one dose. So far it has been enough to keep them alive.

 

[Tarrasque Wrangler]

Most of the time, the cleric was curing the party, casting dispel magic, casting invisibility purge... basically, beeing on the defensive. The fact is, he never got an opportunity to really shine, beeing so busy extinguishing fires.

I think this really depends on your definition of "shine". How many fights did they get to hang on in because of a well timed cure spell? How many invisible opponents didn't ream them because of invisibility purge? How many evil wizards were defeated because of judicious use of dispel magic? Heck, how many levels were not drained by undead the cleric turned?

One man's boring utility character is another man's party linchpin.

 

[Urbannen]

hourly hp

I don't think a non-cleric party is feasible without changing either combat or healing. The current D&D combat system just doesn't allow characters to increase their defenses high enough that they can reliably avoid taking a lot of hit point damage. Natural healing is very slow, especially for fighter-types.

Simply giving the party access to more healing items is cheesy, IMO. However, characters have to have a way to get back hit points more quickly or adventures become tiresome: run in, lose 90% of hit points by second encounter, run out, sit around healing for three to five days, run in, rinse, repeat. I personally like the Star Wars system with a class-based defense bonus and vitality points vs. wound points. Characters get back vitality points hourly, not daily. Since adopting that system to D&D would be a very big headache, I think A'koss's suggestion was good - let the characters get back hit points hourly to allow them to do more per day.

 

[DragonLancer]

In my current DragonLance campaign the first five or 6 levels the party had to do without magical healing simply because the gods had yet to return. The nature of combat didn't change but we did use non-magical healing salves to restore small amounts of damage (1D8 with no mods). The game was challenging but not overly difficult without magic healing.