Clerics, or can we do without them...

I think that you have to ahve some form of healing.

You could seriously modify the class I suppose. Take away some of the support abilities used for putting out fires and let the character make healing potions particularly quickly and cheaply (or be able to 'bless' water to make it into a healing potion as a class ability a certain number of times per day).

Or instead do the same as above but apply it to a wizard, don't let them cast healing spells but let them brew potions that do so then strike away some spells per level or the wizards metamagic feats. (maybe unbalanced)

Just some suggestions I don't know if that's what you were looking for...
 

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Unless you play a tailored low magic campaign or a low level campaign, you will not be able to survive without a cleric. Monsters do far too much damage to survive without clerical healing at levels 10 and up. If you fighter gets one bad crit or hit from a giant or other large high damage creature, you had better be able to heal him or her.

If the enemy party has a cleric, then your party will be at a disadvantage. You would have an easier time surviving without an arcane caster than a cleric. They are just too valuable and important for higher level adventuring in all but the most low powered games where you fight nothing worse than other NPC's.
 

Yeah, it's possible. My current group hasn't had a cleric to speak of yet, and they're 9-10th level.

However, after a fight with a couple of spectres last night (and something like 8 levels drained between them), they've decided to cave in and hire one on.

Up until now, the druid has taken care of most healing needs.

Spider
 

Yes, it is very possible.

Tactics will change. Same as if you go through things without a thief.

Though I am mystified at the bad reputation the cleric class has, particularly as an archetype.

I blame it on a poor sense of history.

In high magic campaigns being without a cleric is less significant. Magical healing and cleric hirelings are readily available. Low magic often lacks clerics anyways.

At middle levels you can simply expect characters to die more often. There's certainly nothing wrong with that. Casualty rates are a part of risky ventures.

If the cleric feels that he is spending too much time saving peoples' lives than maybe you should encourage him to spend less time on that and focus more on the objectives.

Cleric's are a really strong class and aid a great deal in any venture, and the party should both be grateful for broader aid from the cleric and expect to loose party members at a fairly regular rate.

Even in epic adventures characters die fairly frequently. The important thing is that what needed doing got done.
 

No party cleric

It is possible, depending on the type of campaign.

In a combat heavy campaign, a no cleric party is very difficult unless you modify the rules heavily. And modifying the rules can really affect game balance.

In a heavy role-play character interaction campaign, not having a cleric isn't necessarily a big deal.

Of course, most campaigns fall inbetween the two extremes. In this case, the DM may have to modify some encounters a bit to provide a workable challenge for the party. However, I don't think that the DM should pull his or her punches entirely. If the PCs chose to not include a cleric it is up to them to find a way to compensate. It IS a disadvantage to not have a cleric and this weakness should and will come up sometimes. The class just does too many important things for a gap to not be noticeable in some way.
 

I'd argue the big need for clerics isn't the healing so much as healing-like magic... such as Restoration, Remove Disease, and so on.

Restoration alone is _sooo_useful. A lot of things can remove levels, cause ability damage, and so on. This can cripple a character.

I play a 3rd level cleric alongside a monk/rogue and a wizard. I _am_ the party fighter... and also heal and so on. Also turn like mad. I took plant and water domain, so have two extra turning pools and 3 possible targets: plants, fire subtyped creatures, water subtyped creatures.

I agree that playing supporter can be unfun. I was in a game where I played an archer rogue, and I felt bad constantly asking for buffing. Wizards and such want to _do_ things, not blow all their magic boosting everybody. Only so often you can 'take one for the team' before it just sucks.

So I took leadership and got, effectively, a 'pet mage' to do all the buffing. Worked rather well.
 

Re

I think the guy is asking if an "out of the box" D&D party can run without a cleric. I think that he understands that a modified D&D game can run without a cleric. I think we all know that D&D was not designed for a party that did not have a cleric or another healer like a druid. The cleric and the rogue are vital to survivability, even moreso as you get higher level.
 

I think you can get by without the rogue in most cases if youre careful, Ive noticed a few things about 3rd ed having come over from 2nd ed was that its very hard to get some flexibility into PC's. Sure theyre relatively unique but in most cases they tend to just do 1-2 things really well and cant do bugger all outside that scope. The game seems to reward a lot better if you stick to a single role and 'MrT pity da foo' who tries to multiclass any spellcasting class, 'cause later on it will bite you on the arse in no uncertain terms.

So it would seem lately Ive found myself in the meat-grinder that someone tried to call a module, that is City of the spider queen. Being the cleric, Im sticking to my role as the party medic, trying to heal the massive amounts of offence that get thrown at us and finding that I just cant seem to be everywhere at once to stop PC's and friendly NPC's from getting killed wholesale. From the few I did manage to save from certain death someone else has just gone splat 10ft away from a nasty critical, failed save or die effect, not to mention everything else thats just trying to chew on the cleric itself.

And I find myself wondering.
Would it be any different without my cleric?
Not really, I think if I just played a sorc and just nuked everything to death before it comes into range we'd be better off!
Defence, both in terms of healing, armour and magical buffs just dosnt seem to cope with the massive damage output and insta-kill side of things.
 

ForceUser said:
They are invaluable. As for the fellow who said his cleric in the 3-person party never got to shine because he was putting out fires, I say to you - for a cleric, that IS shining :)

Funny you should say that - the cleric in our former Forgotten Realms campaign wasn't putting out fires, he started them.

Casting flame strike in an wooden building will get you exiled out of Waterdeep - even if you are a cleric of Lathander...

Ah, the happy GMing memories... :D
 

You know, outside of eliminating all the situations that require a cleric, trying to eliminate the cleric class serves no point. Otherwise, all the problems that the cleric had to put a band-aid on before are just going to be shunted for someone else to take care of. So now instead of the cleric casting all the healing spells, the wizard's doing it. Instead of the cleric casting invisibility purge, the bard's doing it. Instead of the cleric casting dispel magic, the ranger of all people is doing it.

Is a fighter type required? A rogue? A mage? Lack any one, and certain encounters just become infeasible. Some monsters just don't care about sneak attacks, and aren't overly vulnerable to spells. Traps are problematic for any group without a rogue. Your average purple worm is toast against any spellcaster whose spells rely on will saves to resist.

Now, of course, a cleric is generically useful; the fact is, everyone's going to need healing. Then again, druids, bards, paladins, and even rangers can eventually cover that arena, if only partially. Monks partially fulfill the healer role as well. Even beyond that, what's the big deal with some downtime for healing? Unless your DM is absolutely crazy with random encounters, waiting around a week to heal up shouldn't be that big a deal.

Is a cleric required? No. Is it more important to have than a few other classes? In a generic kind of way, yes. But just like if your party lacked a rogue, or mage, or fighter-type, certain encounters become more difficult, or near impossible to deal with. A party of a bard, barbarian, monk, and a druid is certainly going to have a number of difficulties (and even, hey, advantages) that one with a rogue, fighter, wizard, and cleric won't have. Take a cleric out of the equation, though, and the party should have a bard or druid to possibly make up for the otherwise lack of healing (or at the very least, a paladin or two). As for other stuff, about the only things that clerics have that no one else does would be the upper-tier Restoration spells, and raising the dead - none of which are particularly useful in the middle of combat, anyway. Dispelling magic is fairly generically available, while invisibility purge is easily replaced by glitter dust. Taking a cleric out of the equation means, to a degree, just having to spread the role out between the rest of the party.

Beyond that, cleric's still are fully capable of shining during a combat, between Hold Person, Poison, those half-holy damage Flame Strikes, and a number of other tricks. If somebody wants to play a cleric, but doesn't want to play support, then it would be good for the player just to remind everyone else they can do a few of the same tricks he can.

Anyway, no party should ever be forced to have a certain class in it; there should be a certain amount of give and take between the DM and the players. If no body want to play a rogue type, yet the DM keeps forcing traps down their throats, then the DM's doing a poor job of running the game for penalizing the players for playing what they want to. By the same token, if nobody want to play healer, yet the characters are regularly being slapped with random encounters before they can get a days worth of natural healing in, then that certainly interferes with folk having fun.

Anyway. I've been rambling on for way too long. Tired. Bah. Essentially, a game can be run without a cleric - just that the game needs to be modified for that. Even then, only slightly. A bard and a wizard, or druid and paladin, readily make up for a number of deficiencies that a lack of a cleric creates. If all of those are somehow lacking, well, the party sounds a bit homogenous, anyway, and will likely run into a few other problems then what would simply result from having no cleric.

But, personally, I love clerics. So long as there's an interesting enough pantheon/religion to work with, I jump on them. Anyway...gah...tired...later...ramble, ramble..
 

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