Clerics & Spontaneous Domain Spells

[seasong]

The NPC priest class I designed uses spontaneous domain spells instead of spontaneous cure spells (a priest with the healing domain would be an exception). I am now considering extending that benefit to the cleric.

This would change some balance points of the cleric fairly significantly. Currently, a cleric can only cast one of a particular domain spell per day; under this system, they would be able to cast their full allotment in the domain spell, if they so chose. And this would be considerably more powerful than the spontaneous cure spells... because it could include that and one other domain.

I am also considering dropping the cleric to a single domain, but making the granted power be somewhat more impressive.

Any thoughts? What are the balance issues I'm not considering?

Some other places this has been discussed:
http://enworld.cyberstreet.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=47411
http://enworld.cyberstreet.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=45898

 

[Nifft]

As with the Sorcerer, you need to ask yourself about each spell on every Domain list: would I mind if this were used in every single encounter?

I re-balanced each Domain to reflect this. Many spells which weren't originally on the Cleric spell list needed to be boosted in level -- it makes no sense to have a Cleric be as effective as a Sorcerer.

IMC, I start Clerics off with one Domain, but they can take others as Feats. Also, starting at 3rd level, Druids can take a subset of Domains as Feats -- basically, Healing, Animal, Plant and all Elemental Domains.

Here's my re-balanced Domain list:

http://klimt.cns.nyu.edu/~fishman/DnD/religion.html

-- Nifft

 

[seasong]

As with the Sorcerer, you need to ask yourself about each spell on every Domain list: would I mind if this were used in every single encounter?

Hm... good razor to measure by! Thanks!

Sometimes you just need to know the right question .

IMC, I start Clerics off with one Domain, but they can take others as Feats.

That seems pretty strong for a feat. Have you had any experience with clerics not taking any other feats? And if not, what feats have they taken instead?

Here's my re-balanced Domain list:

http://klimt.cns.nyu.edu/~fishman/DnD/religion.html

Looks pretty good. I'm redoing the domains anyway for the setting, but this will help me as a guideline. I noticed a lot of new spells - are those OGL?

 

[Spatzimaus]

This has come up before. The problem is, if you let them swap for more than one type of spell (cure spells AND domain), then they become more flexible than a Sorcerer. That is, I could fill all my slots up with a third type of spell, and effectively be a Sorcerer that knows 3 spells per level, and by putting some specialized spells in the normal slots I get even better.
Considering all their other advantages, this just isn't balanced; losing a few spells per day and a familiar isn't enough to offset the HP, BAB, saves, granted powers, armor use, turning ability, and so on. It also begs the question, what happens when you add more domains (from a PrC or Feat)?

Now, what we did IMC that's worked nicely is, you swap a spell of a given level for a domain spell of that level (whichever one you picked at the start of the day). This is instead of the "+d" slot domains get, so at the start of the day you're picking 1-9 swap spells instead of 1-9 bonus spells.
If you want to swap for cures, take the Healing domain (assuming your deity has it), and this works for evil clerics too. If you try to let them swap for cures AND domain spells, it just gets ridiculous.

We also tweaked the Paladin in a similar way; instead of that whole immunity to disease and X/week remove disease, they pick one domain and can swap for it like Clerics.

Note that this required editing some deities; a lot more of them now have Healing domains and such.

 

[Nifft]

Hm... good razor to measure by! Thanks!

Shamelessly stolen from Monte Cook's Book of Eldrich Might II, where he re-does the Sorcerer.

Here are the rest of my Domain rules of thumb -- and this batch is actually original!

1) Look carefully at the Cleric and Druid spell lists before taking a spell from another list.

2) Consider higher or lower level Cleric spells for Domain spells. Neutralize Poison wouldn't unbalance the game if it were available to a fraction of Clerics at 3rd level, since it's highly specialized and defensive in nature. On the other hand, Searing Light remains attractive as a 4th level Domain spell, since it's a versatile attack spell.

3) If you're giving Druid spell to a non-elemental Domain, bump it up a level.

4) If you must use an Arcane spell, and it's not among the weakest of its level, bump it up two or three levels. Teleport is a fine spell for a Travel Domain, but it's got to be at least 7th level.

That seems pretty strong for a feat. Have you had any experience with clerics not taking any other feats? And if not, what feats have they taken instead? ... I noticed a lot of new spells - are those OGL?

So far I've had one Druid take one Domain (Ooze) and one Cleric take two Domains (Good and Healing). If you are worried about Clerics taking more Domains than regular Feats, make sure very few Domains give a free Feat -- for example, there's no Elf Domain IMC.

Those marked (DHE) are mine, and will be OGL at some point. In the mean time, they're available for noncommercial use only*. You're more than welcome to snarf them for your campaign -- just don't publish it as a setting without paying me off.

-- Nifft

* Use spells externally. Spell components not included. Do not swallow. If component gets in eyes, flush with water immediately. Cease use if rash continues for more than a week. Consult your magician before using.

 

[SteelDraco]

I allow clerics to take a feat that lets them spontaneously cast from one of their domains. So far, nobody's taken it. I'd seriously consider it if I was a cleric, though it would depend quite a bit on the PC.

BTW, nice domains, Nifft. I don't usually see the need to bump wizard spells up three levels when creating a new domain, but one or two is usually a good idea. Druid spells I usually keep at the same level, though. I just don't see a great deal of conceptual difference between a druid and, say, a cleric of a nature deity with the Animal and Plant domains.

Two comments, though. First, why did you give the Death domain several people-killing spells (Slay Living, Destruction, Finger of Death)? They don't seem appropriate for what looks like, essentially, an undead-fighting domain for a lawful, non-malevolent death god.

Is there some reason that the Entropy domain doesn't have a granted power listed?

 

[Nifft]

BTW, nice domains, Nifft.

Thanks!

Two comments, though. First, why did you give the Death domain several people-killing spells (Slay Living, Destruction, Finger of Death)? They don't seem appropriate for what looks like, essentially, an undead-fighting domain for a lawful, non-malevolent death god.

Selene, the god in question, is Lawful Neutral. She is the Judge and the Reaper. She returns to Death those who are unnaturally separated from it, and takes into Death's bosom those who are naturally ready for it.

She is meant to encompass both the "good" part of Death (that it's natural, and returning the dead to their graves is generally good for the living), and the "bad" part of Death (that it comes for the living).

This Domain should be useful for LG, LN and NE characters -- and it should be a little disturbing for the LG characters.

Is there some reason that the Entropy domain doesn't have a granted power listed?

Not a good reason, but yes: I haven't thought of a good power yet.

-- Nifft

 

[seasong]

This has come up before. The problem is, if you let them swap for more than one type of spell (cure spells AND domain), then they become more flexible than a Sorcerer.

Good points. This is one of the reasons I was considering paring them down to just one domain (since I have priests now, I can treat clerics more like a militant order than clergy, and maybe have them fulfill a "mystery cult" role).

On the other hand, paring them down and dropping the spontaneous healing may be... I dunno, it may change the class too much, in terms of the societal impact it would have. It might match real world mythology better, but I'm trying for D&D myth.

 

[seasong]

Okay, so here's my "balanced" solution. I've decided not to use it (it changes the cleric too much for me), but here it is.

Clerics drop to one domain only. Domain powers and spells remain the same. Cleric spells per day is increased by 1 at each level, and there is no bonus domain spell. Instead, clerics can spontaneously cast domain spells using prepared spell slots. Clerics can NOT do this with cure spells unless they have the Healing domain. The spell selection for domains will likely need to be reconsidered a bit, but I'm not going to be doing that.

Anyway, like I said, I'm not going to be using it. Making it balanced just changes the flavor of the class too much for the setting .

 

[Technik4]

Another option? As someone else mentioned I like the keep 2 domains and pick 1 domain spell each level, this spell can be spontaneously cast in exchange for a spell of that level or higher.

Clerics wouldnt have automatic access to healing spells (but wait) which doesn't necessarily rule out rebalancing domains. The trick is, most clerics would have to prepare healing spells alongside some utility spells. However, at the drop of a hat, one utility spell becomes another utility spell (or an offensive spell, etc) and you save the cures for post-battle (or in a pinch, to spontaneous them into the domain spell).

This would force clerics to memorize healing spells (hey, evil clerics, druids, rangers, paladins, and bards already have to!) but give different faiths different influence.

For instance, a worshipper of a god with the Protection domain would almost always be able to provide a defense, whereas someone with the magic domain could exchange any spell 3rd level of higher for a dispel magic. One who chooses the good domain always has an answer for evil, and vice versa.

Technik