Clerics - What do you LIKE and DISLIKE?
- Thread starter TheLe
- Start date
lukelightning
First Post
Domains. I like 'em and hate 'em.
I like them because they act as a simple "template" to differentiate different religions/deities. I hate 'em because more and more they are stepping on arcane casters' toes (I can't believe they made a domain that gives magic missile! And yet they still forbit mages from casting any healing spells!).
Also with each new book there are so many new domains, many of them so close as to be redundant. Sea domain? What's wrong with the water domain! Health domain? What's wrong with the healing domain? There are so many now that you might as well tell a player "make up your own domains; just pick any spell you want from any source."
Plus I dislike the way that clerics have virtually unlimited choice in spells. Every new book adds a shipload of new spells; arcane casters can get new spells as well, either through purchase or "spells known" picks, but clerics get a dozen or more spells for free. This is very poorly thought out, and while many DMs have house rules about this they really should make a clear rule on which spells are "clerical basics" and which ones need to be aquired in some other way.
Also the turning rules need to be changed; it's harder to turn a zombie hill giant than it is to turn an 11th level lich. That's just wrong.
I like them because they act as a simple "template" to differentiate different religions/deities. I hate 'em because more and more they are stepping on arcane casters' toes (I can't believe they made a domain that gives magic missile! And yet they still forbit mages from casting any healing spells!).
Also with each new book there are so many new domains, many of them so close as to be redundant. Sea domain? What's wrong with the water domain! Health domain? What's wrong with the healing domain? There are so many now that you might as well tell a player "make up your own domains; just pick any spell you want from any source."
Plus I dislike the way that clerics have virtually unlimited choice in spells. Every new book adds a shipload of new spells; arcane casters can get new spells as well, either through purchase or "spells known" picks, but clerics get a dozen or more spells for free. This is very poorly thought out, and while many DMs have house rules about this they really should make a clear rule on which spells are "clerical basics" and which ones need to be aquired in some other way.
Also the turning rules need to be changed; it's harder to turn a zombie hill giant than it is to turn an 11th level lich. That's just wrong.
(Psi)SeveredHead
Adventurer
Dislikes: Turn undead. Really needs to be changed. It doesn't follow the unified mechanic and makes turning completely useless at higher levels. (Well, almost completely. Liches are easy to turn.)
Too much overall power. They're second best at everything, which is like a superbard without the skills.
Some lame spells. Find Traps? Holy Aura? (The latter spell is only useful in terms of monster spellcasting. By the time a PC gets it, they already have a +4 Cloak of Resistance and +4 Ring of Protection and they could have just used Magic Circle Against Evil for pretty much the same benefits.) Also, the ranged healing spells are pretty weak until you get Mass Heal.
Some overpowered or just poorly designed spells. Blasphemy and Holy Word, I'm looking at you.
Spending the first three rounds healing PCs because it's a hard encounter. This doesn't necessarily mean the PCs did something stupid.
Likes: Spontaneous healing. No need to lock up spell slots on healing spells. It lets you get rid of spells that turned out to be useless today, too.
Great spell selection, especially in terms of self buffs, death magic and defenses.
Great overall abilities. Good hp, armor proficiency, good saves, decent BAB.
Social skills. More of an NPC thing, but of all the spellcasting classes, only clerics have the social skills to make them leaders. No matter how smart a mage is, he doesn't make a good leader due to his lack of social skills. Of course, clerics rarely have the skill points to make this possible.
Domains. Not too restrictive like spheres were in 2e. I treat each Domain as "balanced within itself" and don't consider domain pairs to have some extra layer of balance on them. (To put it another way, deities are not assigned domains as some kind of balance thing.) A few domains, like the alignment domains, are lame.
Too much overall power. They're second best at everything, which is like a superbard without the skills.
Some lame spells. Find Traps? Holy Aura? (The latter spell is only useful in terms of monster spellcasting. By the time a PC gets it, they already have a +4 Cloak of Resistance and +4 Ring of Protection and they could have just used Magic Circle Against Evil for pretty much the same benefits.) Also, the ranged healing spells are pretty weak until you get Mass Heal.
Some overpowered or just poorly designed spells. Blasphemy and Holy Word, I'm looking at you.
Spending the first three rounds healing PCs because it's a hard encounter. This doesn't necessarily mean the PCs did something stupid.
Likes: Spontaneous healing. No need to lock up spell slots on healing spells. It lets you get rid of spells that turned out to be useless today, too.
Great spell selection, especially in terms of self buffs, death magic and defenses.
Great overall abilities. Good hp, armor proficiency, good saves, decent BAB.
Social skills. More of an NPC thing, but of all the spellcasting classes, only clerics have the social skills to make them leaders. No matter how smart a mage is, he doesn't make a good leader due to his lack of social skills. Of course, clerics rarely have the skill points to make this possible.
Domains. Not too restrictive like spheres were in 2e. I treat each Domain as "balanced within itself" and don't consider domain pairs to have some extra layer of balance on them. (To put it another way, deities are not assigned domains as some kind of balance thing.) A few domains, like the alignment domains, are lame.
I really like that clerics can cast heal spells spontaneously.
I don't like that even with domain spells it seems that all clerics are the same no matter what god they follow. In the years since 3.0 game out all the clerics I have seen are the same they are all combat monsters in heavy armor smiting evil doers even if they follow a love goddess.
They can also cast all the same spells which does not make sense to me. This is one thing that I preferred in AD&D spheres which meant that some spells your cleric would never get access to. I also don't think that ever cleric should have access to the same weapons I just don't see a cleric of a god of nature fighting with the same weapon as say a cleric of a god of war.
I also think that clerics should cast all their spells like sorcerers instead of having them set in stone. It would seem to be that the gods would not say "sorry I know you really need this spell but since you didn't ask for it this morning you are just going to have to let evil win"
I don't like that even with domain spells it seems that all clerics are the same no matter what god they follow. In the years since 3.0 game out all the clerics I have seen are the same they are all combat monsters in heavy armor smiting evil doers even if they follow a love goddess.
They can also cast all the same spells which does not make sense to me. This is one thing that I preferred in AD&D spheres which meant that some spells your cleric would never get access to. I also don't think that ever cleric should have access to the same weapons I just don't see a cleric of a god of nature fighting with the same weapon as say a cleric of a god of war.
I also think that clerics should cast all their spells like sorcerers instead of having them set in stone. It would seem to be that the gods would not say "sorry I know you really need this spell but since you didn't ask for it this morning you are just going to have to let evil win"
TheLe said:
Dislike
Combat spells. Unless your god is a God of War, clerics should not have spells that let them zap people or have higher ac etc. I think Domains should, like specialization for wizards, be used to cut off certain spells for certain mages. Clerics have access to all the spells possible, and have great attack spells, and armor, and decent hit points. Wizards have fewer spells, cast fewer spells I believe, and get gakked on armor and hit points.
Rhun
First Post
I just overall like the cleric. One of my favorite classes, and has been since AD&D. The domains have definitely added a lot of flavor that wasn't there before, and I like that. Spontaneous casting of curative spells is definitely a good thing. The turn undead mechanic sucks, and needs to be reworked...something along the line of the Spirit Shamon's ability to deal with spirits would be ideal, I think.
I dislike that everyone thinks the cleric is overpowered. While this may be the case, it needs to be that way to get people to play them. For whatever reason, I've found that it is very difficult to get people to play this class.
I dislike that everyone thinks the cleric is overpowered. While this may be the case, it needs to be that way to get people to play them. For whatever reason, I've found that it is very difficult to get people to play this class.
Emirikol
Adventurer
Likes:
* That they are the most tailorable class in the game outside the fighter.
* They are a priest and a holy warrior combined into one easy, playable class. If broken into two classes, neither would be generic enough for fun.
* They're crunchy in dragons' mouths when they run out to save someone
Dislikes:
* Holy symbols can evidently just be two crossed sticks or some spilled paint on a shield and evidently if it's in your backpack it's still eligible for instant, dismembered spellcasting as a component).
* I think they're overpowered "just so people will play them" (people hated playing clerics in the "olden days").
* I think that D&D has moved to using "gods" as a crutch substitute for real adventure planning. "Hey, it's a disease scenario, must be Incabulos behind it all...woooo, that was hard to figure it out...let's just go murder the proverbial evil cult and get it overwith."
* PC's that are convert-or-die are no fun to play with..because after about the 6th campaign of that b.s., it get's old.
* I don't think that divine spells should be exempt from armor penalties. Magic should be magic should be magic. If you wnat to give them "Armored Mage (Ex)" fine, but having a second category of magic is like having 6 different types of saving throws. It's just unnecessary.
jh
* That they are the most tailorable class in the game outside the fighter.
* They are a priest and a holy warrior combined into one easy, playable class. If broken into two classes, neither would be generic enough for fun.
* They're crunchy in dragons' mouths when they run out to save someone
Dislikes:
* Holy symbols can evidently just be two crossed sticks or some spilled paint on a shield and evidently if it's in your backpack it's still eligible for instant, dismembered spellcasting as a component).
* I think they're overpowered "just so people will play them" (people hated playing clerics in the "olden days").
* I think that D&D has moved to using "gods" as a crutch substitute for real adventure planning. "Hey, it's a disease scenario, must be Incabulos behind it all...woooo, that was hard to figure it out...let's just go murder the proverbial evil cult and get it overwith."
* PC's that are convert-or-die are no fun to play with..because after about the 6th campaign of that b.s., it get's old.
* I don't think that divine spells should be exempt from armor penalties. Magic should be magic should be magic. If you wnat to give them "Armored Mage (Ex)" fine, but having a second category of magic is like having 6 different types of saving throws. It's just unnecessary.
jh
(Psi)SeveredHead
Adventurer
Keifer113 said:
Combat is so common in adventures, I'd be surprised if most adventuring clerics didn't end up worshipping a deity of war if the rules were changed that way.
el-remmen
Moderator Emeritus
I hate how generic they are.
A cleric of the god of harvest should have a much different spell list than that of the god of death - and no domains does not represent enough of a difference.
Channeling energy should have a lot more "non-divine feat" options aside from turning undead.
In my setting - i have a unique spell list for each god and different orders get different powers based on their energy channeling - it is not always turn undead.
A cleric of the god of harvest should have a much different spell list than that of the god of death - and no domains does not represent enough of a difference.
Channeling energy should have a lot more "non-divine feat" options aside from turning undead.
In my setting - i have a unique spell list for each god and different orders get different powers based on their energy channeling - it is not always turn undead.
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