Clerics without gods = huh?!

[Desdichado]

I mention this example, because it's clear that you can't answer the question of the Cleric of No Deity generically. Every game world will have an explanation which either permits or denies their existence. Whilst that's trite, it is a reminder to DMs that they need to give some thought to this point. Where indeed does Clerical power derive? What are the limits on its access? What effects will this power have on the game world?

This is the one point in the whole thread that I can agree with: every game world has it's own explanation of divine power and where it comes from. Most DM's I know rule 0 something at least, so hanging onto every word in the PHB as if it's sacrosanct is a bad idea anyway. Let the DM tell you how it works in the setting he's running, and then work on it from there. Me, I can imagine scenarios in which both "godded" and "godless" clerics make sense, but I won't assume either until told.

 

[Desdichado]

Re: Re: Clerics without gods = huh?!

Who's "they"? Because clerics that don't explicitly worship a single god have been around since the beginning of D&D. Worshipping a philosophy has been around at least since 2nd edition.

Requiring clerics to worship a single god instead of, say, a belief, is fine for certain styles of fantasy but not all. Should the basic D&D rules be flexible and allow for different types of religions or not? Cultures in the real world had/have religious beliefs that do not resemble the pagan traditions of Europe or Judeo-Christian beliefs. And while the pagans and Christians are the primary inspiration for most D&D religious systems, D&D is not limited to using those traditions alone for inspiration. Nor should it be.

Besides, look at the description of druids, rangers, or adepts - all divine spell casters, none of them worship gods (unless you're in FR).

Uh, D&D is a specific style of fantasy. It's really not that flexible unless you start changing rules -- the "implied setting" comes out very strongly in the very way that magic operates. Like Tsyr says: you've really got to toss the whole Vancian magic perspective to get "flexibility" in D&D.

 

[smetzger]

Maybe I missed something, but this doesn't make a lot of sense. It looks to me like, in there attempt to make the cleric kewl, they lost sight of any focus.

I believe that for 1e a cleric did not follow a specific deity. I believe this was also the way it was done in the 2e PHB. At the very most the earlier PHBs made only passing reference to cleric's having deities. It wasn't until later in 2e that Cleric's were more or less forced to chose a deity.

So, its nothing new. Its just balancing out Clerics who chose a specific deity with those who do not.

 

[Mercule]

Personally, I'd look at a player who asked to play a cleric of a "philosophy" about the same as I'd look at someone who asked to play a paladin who tortured small children. That is to say, "Dude, you're kinda missing the point."

Now, I'm all good with the idea that a cleric might get his powers from the spirits or some such and not a true god. It's when you start to say "There's this _idea_. It's _so_ powerful...." that I start to shudder.

If someone wanted to play a character that had such strong faith that he could work miracles, I'd say, "Okay, faith, that sounds internal, here's the Psionics Handbook."

Oddly enough, I have an absolute prohibition against druids gaining their spells from deities (they can pay homage, but they don't receive spells for doing so). They gain their powers by revering and communing with all of the universe/multiverse.

 

[Psion]

Now, I'm all good with the idea that a cleric might get his powers from the spirits or some such and not a true god.

For that type of character, see:
http://www.enworld.rpgshop.com/prod...21&PHPSESSID=4c0f6721fc3f0dc69d7ec0815a564b84
or
http://www.enworld.rpgshop.com/prod...90&PHPSESSID=924a09f3aa0d8488961fd4f334bca6f5

 

[Deadguy]

This is the one point in the whole thread that I can agree with: every game world has it's own explanation of divine power and where it comes from. Most DM's I know rule 0 something at least, so hanging onto every word in the PHB as if it's sacrosanct is a bad idea anyway. Let the DM tell you how it works in the setting he's running, and then work on it from there. Me, I can imagine scenarios in which both "godded" and "godless" clerics make sense, but I won't assume either until told.

Yup, I very much agree with you here Joshua. Every DM I have come across has his own take on the relationship of Gods to the World, Gods to their Worshippers and Gods to their Clerics. Without understanding what those ideas are (and often in the early stages of a campaign the ideas need developing further), it's impossible to say what does and doesn't work. I don't blame the PHB for inclusing the option of deityless Clerics, but I agree with those who have said that when it comes to this class (and probably the Paladins and Druids) the PHB should emphasise that you need to discuss characters with the DM in advance.

 

[LostSoul]

You could say it comes from whereever gravity comes from.

Or it could come from the Tao.

Or you could believe in the divinity of the self. Who needs gods when you exist?

edit: I'm surprised at this thread, because I think that Clerics who draw their powers from gods don't make sense. If you're a good god who wants to destroy all undead, why not grant all your worshippers the Sunbeam spell? Although I guess you can just say that most Clerics haven't learned how to focus that power, so they can only Turn Undead, or something.

 

[Henry]

In my campaign, I still use an idea from 1E: Strength of faith alone can grant access to low level spells. Demigods can grant lesser powers, and lesser and greater gods can grant even greater powers directly.

I altered it, such that clerics with NO deity at all can get up to 3rd level spells; so, anyone who strongly believes in a god of bottle washing can get up to 3rd level spells.

Demigods, and divine agents of that level of power, such as high demon and devil lords, can grant up to 6th level spells.

Lesser and Greater Gods can grant up to 9th level spells, but must do so directly.

There is even a city in one part of my campaign which is BASED on religion. It started in concept as a place similar to the Greek Parthenon, where temples of all gods were gathered in one place; but, as different religions paid heed, more and more gathered. The city now OVERFLOWS with temples and shrines to different gods, and only 20 or so can actually claim to be temples of known gods; the rest place their faith in gods that few have ever heard of, and desparately trying to win converts in order to increase not just their standing, but to actually gain enough power to MAKE the god manifest.

In my home campaign from whence this comes, there is a sharp divide between Arcane and Divine Power. Until a certain event in the campaign's past, the ONLY way to get any magical power was through following a god. After this historic event, Arcane magics could be tapped and harnessed. One of the world's central themes is the conflict between followers of gods, and those who say mortals NEED no god. Originally, the divide was pretty clean - there was no healing available without intercession from the gods, and there were no clerics casting fireball, or meteor swarm, power words, etc.

THEN, the bards stirred things up.

Before, Bards could not manifest healing magics. Now, within the last few years, Bards have arisen able to tap healing magics, WITHOUT venerating or at least calling on the name of a god. It has thrown the priesthoods into an uproar at the highest levels, and they fear a bard or a wizard may yet arise who can raise the dead. The priests of the God of Death are REALLY looking for such an individual, and if they find one who can demonstrably raise the dead... *skkkkkkkkkkkkt* (sound of finger-across throat)

However, a curious thing also happened, that the Arcane workers have largely ignored, but the implications of which have struck those in the know: Clerics are starting to manifest higher level Arcane Magics. However, whether this is the gods who are "fighting back," or some unknown confluence of Arcane and Divine beginning to be unified, none have ANY clue.

 

[Desdichado]

Henry: that sounds like a fascinating take on the divine/arcane schism in magic. Me, I'm all for conflicts other that your standard good and evil to rear their head in a campaign. Divine vs. arcane was an idea I developed once. In that setting, arcane magic was legislated and controlled while divine magic was not. There was a strong political push to regulate the divine casters, which became a central theme of the campaign. Unfortunately, the campaign died fairly early before I could really flesh out the concept.

 

[Henry]

edit: I'm surprised at this thread, because I think that Clerics who draw their powers from gods don't make sense. If you're a good god who wants to destroy all undead, why not grant all your worshippers the Sunbeam spell?

Because of three things, all equally plausible:

1. God does not equal "omnipotent" in D&D. The upper priestly powers may only be handed out to a limited number of proven individuals because the god does not have enough power to dole out 9th level spells to every acolyte.
2. Trust. You have to EARN the awesome powers by sticking with the faith through enough trials in order to prove that you have the competence and the proper head to handle such. Spells are a loaded gun; A God, even though reserving the right to strip those spells away, may not necessarily be able to take back the one rash action that doomed an innocent soul. (see point #1)
3. Experience. Only Clerics with 19 Wisdom can cast 9th level spells. It may not be just a question of power or Trust, but a matter of "does this cleric understand all the intricacies of the inner mysteries to truly understand how to tap this power that they god offers. One cannot give Thag the caveman a telephone and expect him to make a phone call. Does he even know how to work the dial? In this sense, Wisdom is the spiritual equivalent of "intelligence" - without a proper understanding of the universe, you simply COULD NOT make the spell work.
4. Rules - given the confluence of multiple gods, there may be a set of agreed upon rules that the gods follow. If you give all your good priests the sunbeam spell to destroy undead, then The Dark Lord is certainly free to give all his priests implosions, or Create Lich spells or summon Titanic Elemental Spells to blow the heck out of your day. So, there is a code to follow - if you agree how much spark to give your priests, I'll agree how much to give mine. If either of us cheats, ALL the other gods will band together to come down on the cheater's head like a jackhammer.

There are plenty of plausible explanations, you just have to look.