Cloud of Knives kills minions?

[keterys]

But an Attack Power is an Attack by definition.

Mostly, do you really think (wis) damage should kill a minion, where (3d6+int)/2 doesn't? Even though the attacks follow virtually identical principles?

Do you think a Cleave should, or a dagger flung for 1d4?

You're thinking too hard about this. The spell has its purpose, among other things killing minions. Have fun with it. If the spell working the way it's intended ruins your fun, then don't use the spell. All the thought required.

 

[Rith the Wanderer]

Cloud of Knives is an At-Will attack. That makes it an attack, I think. Yay words, this is complicated >_<

Thank you HyperSmurf though, you seem to actually be taking my argument seriously, though it seems silly and absurd - the whole idea of minions is silly and absurd.

EDIT: I love minions. I just wish Burning Blood or whatever it's called didn't kill every minion within 10 squares. That's just silly. This is just an example of something that SHOULDN'T kill minions that I have actual rules backing for. At least, semantically.

I understand that you WISH this is how the rules were. Others(including WotC) feel that this is balanced. All of this has no effect on what the rules actually are(besides WotC, they have a pretty big effect on them). I think its perfectly fine for you to run your game saying that minions are invinceable to several abilities and lead to many strange effects. If thats how your players want play, that is a perfectly fine way to play.

But look, both customer service and the minion definition EXPLICITLY disagree with you. The section next to HP in the minon entries doesn't explicitly disagree with you. Your interpretation leads to several strange and even contradictory results. The opposing interpration does not. You have to see the evidence stacking up against you.

Also, the stuff I put in quotes in my post was word for word, the other stuff was paraphrasing. Not that it matters to you, as you changed your mind about it.

 

[SadisticFishing]

First - at least with the flung dagger, or a cleave, you can say "oh crap, I've been hit! run away!". No one flings daggers for 1d4, later in the game (when minions become the sorta "I'm higher level than I deserve, so kill me fast!" instead of the "there are lots of me" of the game) anyways.

The missed fireball or cloud of knives leaves the minions going "okay, okay, I'm fine, phew". Or does just the missed fireballs?

Next, Arbitrary, you still completely misunderstand the argument. Yes, the Effect happens either way. But it does not do damage, as every single minion explicitly says "takes no damage from a miss".

Until someone can truly use the rules to seperate the Attack (not the attack, the "At-Will Attack") from the Effect, my point is valid, logical, and the only way to interpret the rules properly.

EDIT: Sorry 'bout changing my mind, arguing with several very smart people is not the easiest thing to do. Especially since I didn't have my books on me at the time.

 

[Arbitrary]

If you are willing to house-rule away some of the more absurd situations than why bother holding the position in the first place?

 

[SadisticFishing]

Because that's RAW, and I also believe it's RAI that an at will that causes minor scratches should not remove minions from combat.

 

[Hypersmurf]

But an Attack Power is an Attack by definition.

No, it isn't; there are Attack Powers that have no "Attack", "Hit", or "Miss" line.

I'm away from my books, but check around p269-271 of the PHB; it says that an attack is something that uses an attack roll. You'll find there are Attack Powers that don't use an attack roll, so not all Attack Powers are attacks.

-Hyp.

 

[SadisticFishing]

That doesn't follow. Attack rolls are attacks, but no where does it say that Attack Powers are NOT attacks. All fligs are flugs, but are all flugs fligs?

EDIT: Oh yeah, I'm tired, and going to bed, so I forgot to mention..

Things like Wall of Fire are INDEED attacks. Attack Powers.

G'night, we'll settle this tomorrow! ... I hope. If someone finds something that defines Attack Powers as NOT attacks, please post it though, this isn't worth arguing over if I'm wrong.

 

[Rith the Wanderer]

No, it isn't; there are Attack Powers that have no "Attack", "Hit", or "Miss" line.

I'm away from my books, but check around p269-271 of the PHB; it says that an attack is something that uses an attack roll. You'll find there are Attack Powers that don't use an attack roll, so not all Attack Powers are attacks.

-Hyp.

This is just what I was about to bring up. It is page 269. It says "Making an Attack" and then it goes about the process of attack rolls versus defenses.

Sadistic, don't you think it could be at least possible that this "attack" is what is referred to in the minion entry?

Afterall, it is an attack, and all attacks of this type have the ability to miss. Not all attack powers can miss, many make no roll at all.

Ignoring the other factors(customer service responses, etc.), besides that there are two things that could be named attacks (attack powers, and the definition of attack displayed on page 269) what way could you have of determining which one the minion entry it is referring to?

I think, as you do seem to be logical, you would want the definition that produces the least contradictions.

 

[ForbidenMaster]

You still havent explained Cloudkill. With the errata Cloudkill is formatted exactly like Cloud of Daggers. By your logic a Cloudkill that misses a BBEG, but latter on ends up kill him, wouldnt even scratch a minion. How is that logical?

The key to this thread though, is one aspect that the OP seems to miss. The Wizard is a controller. The controller role is pretty much defined as a minion sweeper. It makes no sense to have such powerful controller powers that work great against normal monsters, but simply dont work against minions. Its absurd, illogical, not RAW, and obviously not RAI.

 

[KarinsDad]

Until someone can truly use the rules to seperate the Attack (not the attack, the "At-Will Attack") from the Effect, my point is valid, logical, and the only way to interpret the rules properly.

Only way? This is a false statement, otherwise, everyone would be agreeing with you.

A missed attack never damages a minion.

That's the general minion rule. It applies to all minions.

Any creature that enters the area or starts its turn there takes force damage equal to your Wisdom modifier (minimum 1).

Any creature includes Minions. That's the specific rule. It only applies to Cloud of Daggers.

Specific beats general

If a specific rule contradicts a general rule, the specific rule wins.

Your logic is not as valid as you claim.