Cloud of Knives kills minions?

[Arbitrary]

That really is the simplest argument.

 

[Dormain1]

Pg 54 PHB shows how a power is to be read, the wizard attack 1 in cloud of daggers(knives) is the Name and level of the power


Pg 57 PHB under Attack
"Most attack powers that deal damage require you to
make an attack roll. The “Attack” entry specifies the
kind of attack you make and which of the target’s
defenses you check against."

A missed attack never damages a minion, not missed attack power

Pg 59 PHB
Many powers produce effects that take place regardless
of whether your attack roll succeeds, and other
powers have effects that occur without an attack roll
being required

Pg 58 PHB
Miss
Sometimes the dice are against you, and you miss
your target. Missing isn’t always the end of the story,
however. A miss can indicate a splash effect, a glancing
blow, or some other incidental effect of a power.

Some people have a hard time getting over the effect damage, one person in my group keeps going ??? when ever it is in effect

Just make sure you and your players are having fun with the game that is all that matters rules are there to be broken

hope this helped

 

[Lurker37]

But an Attack Power is an Attack by definition.

No, and this is the heart of the disagreement.

An attack power is a power that includes an attack, but can have other components.

This goes way beyond Cloud of Daggers.

Check out the paladin power Righteous Inferno. The 3x3 zone of fire created can be sustained, and damages any enemy that enters it (something that can happen thanks to an unfriendly push, pull or slide) or starts their turn there, without any attack roll.

It strikes me as ridiculous to state that the entire zone is somehow nullified if none of the targets within are hit by the initial attack rolls. The zone even does a different amount of damage to the initial attack roll.

Even more ridiculous to claim that any target, minion or not, could somehow become permanently immune to that zone simply by being missed by the initial roll, even if some of the other targets in that area were burned or even slain.

And most ridiculous of all to claim that a weak minion with no fire resistance is able to thrive where its stronger counterparts, and other minions with identical stat blocks, burn and perish.

 

[Goumindong]

That doesn't follow. Attack rolls are attacks, but no where does it say that Attack Powers are NOT attacks. All fligs are flugs, but are all flugs fligs?

It also doesn't say that Utility Powers aren't attacks. And doesn't say that magical healing isn't an attack. And doesn't say that your second wind isn't an attack. It doesn't say a weapon isn't an attack. Oh no, any minion instantly dies when it picks up a weapon(since it got hit by an attack!)

Are they also attacks?

A: No.
An attack is very clearly defined by the PHB on page 270, and walls are attacks(by that definition). But so are effects.(its a type of area attack that requires no success roll)

So CoD has two attacks

One that is an effect that creates a Zone. And requires no attack roll, and automatically succeeds(I.E. hits).

And one that requires an attack roll. Just because the attack roll fails does not mean the Zone fails.

See page 59

ED: Of course, according to page 56 and 57, walls aren't attacks because they have no "attack:" portion in their description and I am want to agree with that because it makes time stop a whole lot more powerful.

 

[ST]

He's reading the reminder text to a rule as itself a rule (that supercedes the rule it's reminding you of). I got confused by this when I first read it too, I think the actual rule is short enough that they probably should have put the actual full text there instead.

That interpretation just makes any spell with an effect make the DM have to track whether it started with a hit or a miss, and then minions are immune to it if it was a miss. Nothing else in the game makes you track something that funky for that long, so it's obviously not how it's supposed to work. He admitted to how it would make Spiritual Weapon work, which is just funky.

Edit: Interesting. The new Artificer playtest has a level 5 spell with Hit: Miss: and Effect: listed, and it's Effect creates a zone that does damage.

 

[Oompa]

We are already on page 6.. and it is still debated???

Holy cow..

Its so simple..

Inititiative:

- Wizard
- BBEG
- Fighter
- Minion 1
- Minion 2
- Minion 3

Wizard casts CoD on minion 1, the attack misses, nothing happens..
BBEG and Fighter take theire turn, doing nothing..
Minion 1 starts his turn in the square and takes an minimum of 1 damage and DIES..
Minion 2 sees that and go's help his friend and DIES!!!
Minion 3 sees that and go's help his friend and DIIIIIIEEEESSSSSS!!!!

 

[Aloïsius]

It is not curious at all. It is a straight forward reading of the rules.

My only assumption is that the effect is part of the attack. Which it is.

Nope. Because, if iit was, then you would deal the attack against ANY creature that enter the square or starts its turn there. Which is not the case, as they only receive the AUTOMATIC damage.

Thus, those are entirely unrelated damage and cloud of dagger kills minions.

 

[Mistwell]

The sad thing is that no progress has been made in 6 pages. SadisticFishing just keeps repeating the same argument over and over again, and mostly ignoring everyone else's responses (which may be reasonable given the sheer number of responses he has to deal with). But I think we knew long ago that no progress will be made on this issue. SadisticFishing is dug in and simply defending a position, not trying to resolve a question he has.

 

[Oompa]

The sad thing is that no progress has been made in 6 pages. SadisticFishing just keeps repeating the same argument over and over again, and mostly ignoring everyone else's responses (which may be reasonable given the sheer number of responses he has to deal with). But I think we knew long ago that no progress will be made on this issue. SadisticFishing is dug in and simply defending a position, not trying to resolve a question he has.

I think he doesnt want to give in because he finds it funny to let people discuss obvious rules..

 

[Jhulae]

There is no inference.

A missed attack never damages a minion.

I rest my entire argument on that statement.

And that statement, taken alone, is correct.

The fact that some Attack Powers *also* have attached Effects that don't require attack rolls and will kill minions is the part you're missing. Even with the fact that everyone else has been trying to say this.

And, if you won't even take the word of someone who worked on the game that you're misinterpreting the fact that attached Effects that don't require attack rolls kill minions, well, you're free to house rule your game any way you want.