Cloud of Knives kills minions?

[NorthSaber]

It's not that the editors at WotC are not careful in their reviews, it's that people like you and I and the rest of the forum community have years and years in which to focus on nearly every section of the books and analyze them to death. This is not the first "unintentional error" found, nor will it be the last.

No set of nearly 1000 pages of text will hold up completely in terms of consistency with that level of manpower and scrutiny.

Slightly off-topic, but I can't help but think of the bible when you say that...

But yeah - you can't really expect everything to be written perfectly and with clear examples when you have only so many pages and so much cool content, and so you end up either choosing the interpretation that is the most fun (and usually RAI), or the other one (for whatever reason).

 

[Xorn]

I think he doesnt want to give in because he finds it funny to let people discuss obvious rules..

I said that on page 2. But people just keep feeding the troll.

 

[The Little Raven]

Except you can actually take up to 4 attacks, assuming you hit with both initial attacks. see below.

No. It's three attacks. You get two attacks on a primary target, then a third attack on the primary (or another) target if you are wielding a particular weapon. That's it. There is no requirement for hitting with either of the first two attacks, or else the "make a secondary attack" qualifier would have been under the "Hit:" entry, not a "Weapon:" entry.

The "weapon" section of a power description modifies the immediately preceding "hit" "miss" or "effect" section (see silverstep for example).

No, it doesn't.

Therefore, the weapon section of Rain of Blows is a part of the "hit" section, which is applied each time the character hits with an attack roll indicated by the "Primary Attack" section. Thus, for each hit, someone with a light blade, spear or flail and at least 15 Dex gets a secondary attack.

No, it isn't. It's an entirely separate attack, unrelated to whether the primary attack(s) hit or not. If it was dependent on hitting, then "Make a secondary attack." would be under the "Hit:" section, just like every other power that requires you to hit to make a secondary attack.

The following powers all have secondary attacks that require you to hit with the primary attack in order to get a secondary attack. They all directly specify under the "Hit:" section that you must hit with the primary attack to gain the second attack.

Arc of the Righteous (67), Battle Pyres (74), Passing Attack (78), Giant's Wake (81), Fangs of Steel (84).

Giant’s Wake Fighter Attack 13
You lay about with heavy, sweeping blows, hewing your enemies left and right.
Encounter ✦ Martial,Weapon
Standard Action Melee weapon
Primary Target: One creature
Attack: Strength vs. AC
Hit: 2[W] + Strength modifier damage. Make a secondary attack.
Weapon: If you’re wielding an axe, you gain a bonus to the damage roll equal to your Constitution modifier.
Secondary Target: Each enemy adjacent to the primary target and within your melee reach
Secondary Attack: Strength vs. AC
Hit: 1[W] + Strength modifier damage.
Weapon: If you’re wielding an axe, you gain a bonus to the damage roll equal to your Constitution modifier.

The above is exactly how it's formatted when you are required to hit with your secondary attack. The qualifier is under the "Hit:" entry.

The following powers all have secondary attacks that do not require you to hit with the primary attack in order to get a secondary attack, as the requirement for the secondary attack is not specified under the "Hit:" section, but rather the "Effect:" or "Weapon:" section.

Rain of Blows (79), Devastation's Wake (84), Cruel Reaper (85), Weaponsoul Dance (87).

Rain of Blows Fighter Attack 3
You become a blur of motion, raining a series of blows upon your opponent.
Encounter ✦ Martial, Weapon
Standard Action Melee weapon
Primary Target: One creature
Attack: Strength vs. AC, two attacks
Hit: 1[W] + Strength modifier damage.
Weapon: If you’re wielding a light blade, a spear, or a flail and have Dexterity 15 or higher, make a secondary attack.
Secondary Target: The same or a different target
Secondary Attack: Strength vs. AC
Hit: 1[W] + Strength modifier damage.

The above is exactly how it's formatted when you don't need to hit to gain the secondary attack, because the qualifier is under the "Weapon:" entry and only requires you to be wielding a particular type of weapon.

It isn't unclear at all.

Yeah, it's perfectly clear. You get two attacks against one target. If you have the right weapon, you get a third attack, against any target within range.

 

[hamishspence]

indentation

Devastation's Wake does not have Weapon keyword for different weapons. Rain of Blows does, indented, under hit. implication: weapon keyword kicks in after target is hit. Rain of Blows does not have an "effect" keyword at all. So, you need to hit to get a secondary attack at all, by this reading.

Whereas, with the other 3, no indentation is present, and the secondary attacks are all specified in "Effect"

How many fighter powers have Hit, and underneath, an indented Weapon? A lot. And generally, whatever the Weapon bonus, whether blinding, dazing, stunning, bonus on damage roll, you actually have to have Hit.

Sometimes, weapon is under Attack instead of hit: Paralyzing Strike: scores criticals more easily. So, if you were intended to always get the Secondary Attack in rain of Blows, it would have been under Attack, not Hit.

 

[The Little Raven]

Devastation's Wake does not have Weapon keyword for different weapons.

Doesn't matter.

Rain of Blows does, indented, under hit. implication: weapon keyword kicks in after target is hit.

Indentation does not make it a part of the "Hit:" section. All attacks that require you to hit with the primary attack have "Make a secondary attack." except for one (which requires you to reduce the enemy to 0 HP to get a secondary attack).

Rain of Blows does not have an "effect" keyword at all.

Irrelevant.

So, you need to hit to get a secondary attack at all, by this reading.

No, you don't, or it would say under "Hit:" that you can "Make a secondary attack." It doesn't say that, therefore you do not need to hit with it in order to make a secondary attack.

Whereas, with the other 3, no indentation is present, and the secondary attacks are all specified in "Effect"

Again, indentation is not indicative of a direct relationship between the "Hit:" and "Weapon:" section. The only qualifier for the secondary attack is the proper weapon (and Dexterity score).

All four of those abilities not not require a successful primary attack to gain the benefits of the secondary attack. The reason that Rain of Blows has the secondary attack qualifier under "Weapon:" instead of "Effect:" is because it requires particular weapons in order to gain the extra attack, but does not require a successful hit at any point.

The general rule is that an effect that relies on a successful attack is noted under the "Hit:" entry, and there is no specific rule that trumps that.

And generally, whatever the Weapon bonus, whether blinding, dazing, stunning, bonus on damage roll, you actually have to have Hit.

Because all of those abilities are directly keyed off of a hit, but the ability to make a secondary attack is not. It merely requires you to be wielding the weapon.

Sometimes, weapon is under Attack instead of hit: Paralyzing Strike: scores criticals more easily. So, if you were intended to always get the Secondary Attack in rain of Blows, it would have been under Attack, not Hit.

It's not under hit. That's why the "Hit:" section lacks a "Make a secondary attack." qualifier like every other attack that requires a hit to make a secondary attack.

 

[hamishspence]

weapon

Weapon is under Hit. It doesn't say you can make a secondary attack under hit because, you can't, unless you have the right weapon.

While it is the only power with Secondary attack as a component of Weapon, rather than Hit, or Effect, it is not the only power with special effects as a consequence of hitting with a weapon.

Go through all the other powers for the fighter, for those with Weapon indented under hit, you do not get the special properties of the weapon unless you hit with that weapon.

So why should Rain of Blows be any different?

 

[hamishspence]

attack vs hit vs Effect

Weapon keyword can appear in multiple locations. For some, its under Attack: weapon does something different for making the attack.
For some, its Hit: weapon does something different if you Hit.
For some, its Effect: you get the Weapon effect always, hit or miss.

For Rain of Blows, its under Hit. The secondary attack comes from the weapon, and the weapon property keys off actually hitting the target. Works the same for other formatted fighter powers.

 

[ryryguy]

Just a quick pedantic note... people are using the term "keyword" too much. A power's keywords are only the things that appear in bold in the first 2 (?) lines of the power. The bold words after that, followed by a colon and then non bolded text, are not keywords. They don't have a name that is explicitly called out in the PHB, but they are generally referred to as "lines".

e.g., "Attack" never appears as a keyword, only as a line (or power type).

This is double confusing in the case of "Weapon", which can be both a keyword and a line. I guess powers with the Weapon keyword do not have to have a Weapon line, but powers with a Weapon line must have the Weapon keyword.

 

[The Little Raven]

Weapon is under Hit.

Repeat after me: Indentation has no rules.

Unless you can point to an actual rule in the text that states that "Weapon:" being indented under another section means that it is fully dependent on that section, then the rule you're claiming does not exist. Even under the Fighter and Melee Weapons section, it doesn't say anything about attacking or hitting, merely that particular weapons grant particular bonuses based on particular ability score (some of which obviously rely on successful attacks, such as bonus damage, since you can't deal damage with the power unless you hit).

If Rain of Blows does require a successful primary attack, then it needs to be specified in either the "Hit:" entry ("Make a secondary attack (see below).") or the Weapon entry ("If you’re wielding a light blade, a spear, or a flail and have Dexterity 15 or higher, make a secondary attack if the primary attack hits."), because otherwise there is no general rule that requires it (and there's no specific rule in the power either).

It doesn't say you can make a secondary attack under hit because, you can't, unless you have the right weapon.

And it doesn't say it requires the primary attack to be successful in any part of the power, at all. If it required a successful hit, this would be spelled out clearly in either section, like every other power in the game.

While it is the only power with Secondary attack as a component of Weapon, rather than Hit, or Effect, it is not the only power with special effects as a consequence of hitting with a weapon. Go through all the other powers for the fighter, for those with Weapon indented under hit, you do not get the special properties of the weapon unless you hit with that weapon.

Go through all the powers that grant a secondary attack. Note that they all explicitly spell out the requirements of gaining those secondary attacks, whether it's a successful primary attack, or condition (reduce the primary attack's target to 0 hp; all adjacent opponents until the end of your next turn; etc).

So why should Rain of Blows be any different?

Because we're talking about an exception-based design, which is all about making specific powers different than others.

 

[naturaltwenty]

Below is a template for a power from the GSL - Each entity; Attack, Hit, Miss, Effect has it's own separate entry. Lumping Effect into Attack (as Sadistic Fishing is attempting to do) is where I see the problem laying.

The attack can hit or miss but the effect occurs no matter what.

@Flavor
At-Will �� [Keywords]
[Action Type] Action [Range] [Range modifier]
Special: @Effect
Target: @
Attack: [Ability Score] vs. [Defense]
Hit: @Damage expression and/or effect
Miss: @Damage expression and/or effect
Effect: @Effect
Sustain [Action]: @Effect