Cloud of Knives kills minions?

[hamishspence]

the aforesaid Dragons Fangs: Attack: two attacks. Hit: 3(W) + Str damage. That didn't see the need to say: damage per target.

 

[theNater]

I'm using the only definiton of attack which makes sense. An attack. Either an attack power, or an attack roll.

An attack power is a power, not an attack. The text is that a missed attack never damages a minion, not a missed power.

To convince yourself that an attack power is not an attack, please examine the following powers: Guardian of the Faith(cleric 1) and Twin Strike(ranger 1).

Guardian of the Faith, while an attack power, is not an attack. It is a summon or conjuration.

Twin Strike is an attack power that is quite clear in stating that it includes two attacks.

Edit: Weapon of the Gods(cleric 5) is a better example. It is not an attack, it is an enhancement.

 

[hamishspence]

"Hit" entry explains what happens when a attack roll succeeds: p57 Two attack rolls: two hits, damage is for each hit.

Also Storm of Destruction, 29th level power, one or two targets. simply says: Hit: X damage. Miss, Half damage.

 

[Chen_93]

Wall of Fog doesn't do damage, does it?

So how is that relevant to minion killing? They don't die when they've been effected by an attack, they die when they take damage.

Perhaps if you actually read my post better you would realize A) what I was talking about and B) that it supported what you were saying.

The example of a wall of fog being an "area attack" when it clearly has no attack roll or any damage component, supports that idea that the effect left by cloud of knives is the result of an "attack".

It is, as others have said, the definition of "attack" that is in question here. There is no glossary where we can just look this up and the other places it is mentioned do tend to imply it needs an attack roll but it does not come out and say it exactly. The wall of fog example in fact directly contradicts this "an attack needs an attack roll" thinking. And thus is there is merit, at least by RAW in what you are saying.

In terms of RAI you are absolutely wrong. The article about minions with the clarifying text about indirect effects killing minions clearly shows the intent of the "missed attacks dont kill minions" bit.

 

[jdpacheco]

Re: Cloud of Sharp Objects:
It's true that Cloud of Daggers is an attack. Both in "Hi, I'm an attack power" and in the "You have to roll to hit stuff" senses. However, as soon it's your turn is over, it stops being a "missed attack". When a creature begins its turn in within the cloud, the zone portion of it activates. The cloud gets a free attack at that time, which always hits, and always does at least 1 point of damage.


Re: Rain of Blows
This one is *up to* four attacks. 2 primary attacks, and if you're wield the specified weapons and have the specified stat, you get a second attack with each hit, which is why they're indented, so's to indicate that you need to hit with the first one for the secondary to kick in. That's why Devastation's Wake's secondary attack *isn't* indented. It's not dependent on the Hit.

Rain of Blows is:
If you hit, and you're wielding this weapon, you get a secondary attack.

This will happen each time you hit on a primary attack. Of which you get 2.

 

[Khime]

But also, using the odd minion rules to try to disprove me "but what if the minion dances around in the knives and runs in and out of the area over and over!" is not a valid argument, as minions DO NOT DO THAT.

Actually, they do. p57 of the PHB says that whenever you affect a creature with a power, that creature knows exactly what you've done to it and what conditions you've imposed. So the minions would KNOW that the daggers cannot hurt them, and could gleefully move in and out of the daggers at will. Like, say, if being in the square with the daggers would also put them in cover or give them flanking.

 

[Rith the Wanderer]

I'm using the only definiton of attack which makes sense. An attack. Either an attack power, or an attack roll. In this case, I'm using it as power, because attack rolls do not do damage on a miss, attack powers do. It's relatively easy to read "a missed attack roll never damages a minion" as "this statement means nothing", because attack rolls don't damage minions. Sadly, I don't have my books on me again, so I can't check how the full minion description thing is worded.

Because it supports my argument is a compltely valid reason for reading it that way. It makes sense that by "attack", they mean "attack".

It is possible that in the small little minion entry (the large entry completely refutes you, you have decided that it is just not including the part in each minion entry) they mean the colloquial term of attack. As in, dictionary definition, which would include an attack power. It is also possible they mean the DnD definition of attack, that is, an attack roll that when succeeds deals "Hit:" damage, and when misses deals "Miss:" damage.

Using the second definition yields no contradictions and creates no need for rules adjudication.

Using the first definition creates many contradictions and requires adjudication in several instances.

In addition to this, if one were confused as to which version they were using, one should go read the full minion entry in either the MM or the DMG. This agrees with using the second definition.

There is absolutely no reason to continue assuming they use the colloquial version of the word "attack" even though, ignoring all other evidence, it is possible this is what they meant.

The section of the full minion entry that pertains to this conversation is as follows: (MM 282)
A minion is destroyed when it takes any amount of damage. Damage from an attack or from a source that doesn’t require an attack roll (such as the paladin’s divine challenge or the fighter’s cleave) also destroys a minion.
However, if a minion is missed by an attack that normally deals damage on a miss, it takes no damage.

The section on effects that pertains to this conversation is as follows: (PHB 59)​

Many powers produce effects that take place regardless of whether your attack roll succeeds, and other powers have effects that occur without an attack roll being required.

 

[jdpacheco]

SadisticFishing:
One other thing of note. Mouseferatu specifically said "Hi, I helped with the making of this game. Oh, yeah, and I'm on good terms with the people who did all the big work on it. Let me tell you how it works." and then told you "The damage from the zone will kill minions. Tada." (Mouseferatu, if you're reading this, please ignore the flip manner with which I'm quoting you).

Whatever other ways you may happen to feel like spinning in your head to make the game more of a pain in the butt, or create arguments, or to make powers not work, or remove what limited advantages your players have over monsters.... Someone who WORKED ON THE GAME and KNOWS THE PEOPLE WHO DONE MADE THE DARNED THING is telling you "It works the way you think it doesn't, so say the people who really know."

You are welcome to house rule this power however you see fit. But don't (a) ignore the word of someone who actually knows something or (b) try to claim something is true to RAW (and/or RAI) when, clearly, it isn't.

 

[Rith the Wanderer]

SadisticFishing:
One other thing of note. Mouseferatu specifically said "Hi, I helped with the making of this game. Oh, yeah, and I'm on good terms with the people who did all the big work on it. Let me tell you how it works." and then told you "The damage from the zone will kill minions. Tada." (Mouseferatu, if you're reading this, please ignore the flip manner with which I'm quoting you).

Whatever other ways you may happen to feel like spinning in your head to make the game more of a pain in the butt, or create arguments, or to make powers not work, or remove what limited advantages your players have over monsters.... Someone who WORKED ON THE GAME and KNOWS THE PEOPLE WHO DONE MADE THE DARNED THING is telling you "It works the way you think it doesn't, so say the people who really know."

You are welcome to house rule this power however you see fit. But don't (a) ignore the word of someone who actually knows something or (b) try to claim something is true to RAW (and/or RAI) when, clearly, it isn't.

Customer service has also completely and one-sidedly disagreed with him. He doesn't really trust anyone to understand how the rules are meant to be used except the actualy person who wrote it down.

 

[Praesul]

"A minion is destroyed when it takes any amount of damage. Damage from an attack or from a source that doesn’t require an attack roll (such as the paladin’s divine challenge or the fighter’s cleave) also destroys a minion."

"Many powers produce effects that take place regardless of whether your attack roll succeeds, and other powers have effects that occur without an attack roll being required."

Based on the text there, I'd say that Cloud of Daggers does kill minions. To me, the statement next to a minions HP figure is a general rule stating something in a very broad and undefined way. The Minion entry in the back of the MM is a much more specific definition of how Minion HP work, and therefore is the specific rule which trumps the general reminder at the minion's HP total.

The second definition states that effects take place regardless of whether your attack roll succeeds. Since no effect states whether it goes of regardless of misses, all effects take place regardless of hitting.

The minion definition says, specifically, that these types of effects kill minions as well.

Lastly, page 276 of the PHB defines attack results and there is a grayed area which describes "Hit" and "Miss," which in my mind indicates that the attack result only determines whether you choose "Hit" or "Miss" in your power to resolve what is supposed to happen in game. Since the "effect" section is not referenced in this "Attack Results" section, it isn't a part of teh attack. At least in my mind.