Cloud of Knives kills minions?

[SadisticFishing]

Bwahaha, finally people are starting to argue on my side.

Though it's all by mistake. Many of you don't understand the argument, because you're looking at it from a closed-minded view. Which I am too, but in a different way - I am assuming that I am right and giving my reasons for it. Until someone gives me a reason other than "you're reading it wrong", which I'm not, I'm going to continue to assume that I am right.

I checked. NO where in the PHB does it say an "attack" requires an attack roll. "Attack" is never clearly defined, so I'm defining as "an attack". Anything that is an Attack Power, basically - including Basic Attacks (grab and the like are still Attack Powers, but everyone knows them - matter of fact, in my opinion they should have given a section on powers that everyone has, including basic melee, basic ranged, grab, and second wind... but they didn't).

I have no reason to repent. Galileo didn't, and no one believed him at first, did they?

By the way, I'm having the slight problem that I recently stopped seeing this as a rules question. It's become a logic problem, too many of you who are trying to convince me that I'm wrong because either I'm the only one on my side, or because I'm "not reading it right".

 

[theNater]

I checked. NO where in the PHB does it say an "attack" requires an attack roll.

ATTACK
To make an attack, roll 1d20 and...

If you make an attack, you roll 1d20. If you do not roll 1d20, it is not an attack.

 

[Rith the Wanderer]

Bwahaha, finally people are starting to argue on my side.

Though it's all by mistake. Many of you don't understand the argument, because you're looking at it from a closed-minded view. Which I am too, but in a different way - I am assuming that I am right and giving my reasons for it. Until someone gives me a reason other than "you're reading it wrong", which I'm not, I'm going to continue to assume that I am right.

I checked. NO where in the PHB does it say an "attack" requires an attack roll. "Attack" is never clearly defined, so I'm defining as "an attack". Anything that is an Attack Power, basically - including Basic Attacks (grab and the like are still Attack Powers, but everyone knows them - matter of fact, in my opinion they should have given a section on powers that everyone has, including basic melee, basic ranged, grab, and second wind... but they didn't).

I have no reason to repent. Galileo didn't, and no one believed him at first, did they?

By the way, I'm having the slight problem that I recently stopped seeing this as a rules question. It's become a logic problem, too many of you who are trying to convince me that I'm wrong because either I'm the only one on my side, or because I'm "not reading it right".

Attack is implicitly defined on PHB pg. 269. "All attacks follow the same basic process:..." It describes an attack roll, followed by descriptions of Hit: and Miss:. I take it by your not mentioning it at all, you are choosing to ignore the completely definitive customer service response?

 

[Tripgnosis]

Psst. You use of illegally downloaded copyrighted documents is showing!

How so?? I'm assuming that YOU'RE assuming that I cut and pasted that excerpt from a PDF that I illegally obtained. We should both stop assuming things, you know what happens when you assume things don't you....the old saying...

 

[Psychman]

If you make an attack, you roll 1d20. If you do not roll 1d20, it is not an attack.

And an Attack Power is defined as any power that can be used to do harm to your enemies in combat, more or less directly (PHB pg 54). Which to my mind confirms that attack powers do not necessarily need an attack roll to do damage, therefore do not come up against the "no damage from a miss effect" rule for minions. Does this help at all?

 

[Tripgnosis]

Bwahaha, finally people are starting to argue on my side.

Who's arguing on your side? Closets thing I see are people being confused and misled by you're twisted and convoluted perception of reality. Or more accurately, the perception of reality which you would have us believe to be your own. I think you're trying to defend a side of an argument that you yourself don't actually believe. I've done that msyelf. It IS fun....

 

[Praesul]

Did you even read my post, SadisticFishing? The PHB does define what an attack is by defining what an attack result is.

 

[Plane Sailing]

How so?? I'm assuming that YOU'RE assuming that I cut and pasted that excerpt from a PDF that I illegally obtained. We should both stop assuming things, you know what happens when you assume things don't you....the old saying...

Care to explain the odd line breaks that exactly match up with the line breaks in the book then? From the other part of your post you don't put in artificial line breaks. Are you trying to say that you deliberately went to the effort of formatting the text you quoted from the MM with exactly the same line breaks?

Because frankly I don't believe that.

 

[theNater]

And an Attack Power is defined as any power that can be used to do harm to your enemies in combat, directly or indirectly (PHB pg 54). Which to my mind confirms that attack powers do not necessarily need an attack roll to do damage, therefore do not come up against the "no damage from a miss effect" rule for minions. Does this help at all?

You are correct. An attack power need not include an attack.

It may include an attack and things that are not attacks.

It may include multiple attacks.

Being included in an attack power is not enough to make something an attack.

The d20 roll is a necessary part of an attack. Any part of the power that doesn't include an attack roll is not an attack.

 

[Kordeth]

Care to explain the odd line breaks that exactly match up with the line breaks in the book then? From the other part of your post you don't put in artificial line breaks. Are you trying to say that you deliberately went to the effort of formatting the text you quoted from the MM with exactly the same line breaks?

Because frankly I don't believe that.

It's entirely possible he does have a PDF he copied from, but it's a legit copy from WotC. Playtesters might have such things, developers working on GSL products--heck, I've got PDFs legit from WotC because I work at a company that makes D&D video games, and we regularly get early-access PDFs of D&D books.