Cloud of Knives kills minions?

[Saitou]

Can't we let the deluded, possibly autistic or Asperger's afflicted guy alone? He can play however he wants to, as long as he doesn't jam other threads with his version of the "correct" rules.

We have all determined that Effects are indeed separate from attacks. Maybe this thread should be closed.

 

[ryryguy]

It makes sense that by "attack", they mean "attack".

Absolutely!

I'm using the only definiton of attack which makes sense. An attack. Either an attack power, or an attack roll.

No. This is the sticking point, everything else is pretty much smoke.

"Attack" is specificially defined by the PHB to mean something that you make an attack roll for.

"Attack power" is not defined by the PHB to mean "attack". Can you point to a location where it does?

"Attack" in the first line of the power is in fact explicitly defined by the PHB to mean "kind of power". (It's the first section under "How to Read a Power.") "Attack" in "attack power" is an adjective, not a noun.

Example already given: a "rocket launcher" is not a rocket, it is a kind of launcher (that fires a rocket).

A tennis racquet is not tennis, it is a kind of racquet (that can be used to play tennis).

A picnic basket is not a picnic, it is a kind of basket (that can contain a picnic).

A baseball player is not a baseball, he is a kind of player (that uses a baseball).

An attack power is not an attack, it is a kind of power (that involves an attack).

SadisticFishing, can you give any support to your notion that "an attack power is an attack" beyond the fact that the phrase contains the word "attack"?

 

[Zimri]

A picnic basket is not a picnic, it is a kind of basket (that can contain a picnic).

I thought a picnic was an "event" the picnic basket can contain things you would use to have a successful picnic (like infinite oregano). be careful on the picnic though if you miss your attack roll it is inneffective against minions and the regular sized ants won't be affected by the aoe

 

[ryryguy]

You're right, I should have said it contains a "picnic lunch". Minions can't throw a picnic on their own; however they can eat lunch.

 

[Mistwell]

Can't we let the deluded, possibly autistic or Asperger's afflicted guy alone? He can play however he wants to, as long as he doesn't jam other threads with his version of the "correct" rules.

We have all determined that Effects are indeed separate from attacks. Maybe this thread should be closed.

I entirely agree with you, and yet I keep being attracted back to this thread, like a moth to flame.

 

[Mistwell]

Now on to the topic (again).

For those curious to see a power that is listed as an attack, but which does not involve an attack roll, see for example:

Consecrated Ground (Cleric Attack 5)
Daily, Divine, Healing, Radiant, Zone
Standard Action, Close burst 1
Effect: The burst creates a zone of sanctified ground that lasts until the end of your next turn. You can move the origin square of the zone 3 squares as a move action. Enemies that start their turns within the zone take 1d6+your Charisma modifier radiant damage. You and any allies who are bloodied and start their turns within the zone regain hit points equal to 1+ your Charisma modifier.
Sustain Minor: The zone persists

And, as mentioned earlier:

DMG pg 54: Damage from an attack or from a source that doesn't require an attack roll (such as the paladin's divine challenge or the fighter's cleave) destroys a minion.

Cloud of Daggers does not require an attack roll for it to deal damage.

So obviously you can have an attack that cannot involve a miss and which does deal damage and kills minions (Consecrated Ground), and a rule that says you can have a power deal damage to a mininion and as long as it doesn't require an attack roll for that damage the minion dies.

So why couldn't you have an attack power with two aspects: 1) An aspect that involves an attack roll and damage from that successful attack roll, 2) An aspect which deals damage in a manner that doesn't require an attack roll, and which still kills minions?

To put a different way, SadisticFishing, how would you word a power if you wanted it to do both of those things (have an aspect that requires an attack roll and which does not kill minions on a miss, and an aspect that does not require an attack roll and which does kill minions)?

 

[Rith the Wanderer]

Now I know you have little trust of customer service, but I thought that maybe a question specifically asking about your issue might convince you. Note that though customer service does in some cases contradict itself, in this case it does not, ever.

Question:

Would a minion still be affected (take damage and die) from the "effect" lines of spells such as cloud of daggers and cloudkill, even if the original attack missed?

********************
Page Number: 59
Book Name: PHB

Answer:

Hello. Yes, effect damage kills minions. The only kind of damage that doesn't kill minions is 'miss' damage.

Please write us back if you require any further assistance.


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[hamishspence]

Hey, less of the Aspergers remarks its not always that that's the issue, its whether you are prepared to change your opinion if you see many logical arguments agaisnt it.

 

[Dausuul]

[Deleted by author due to redundancy.]

 

[Morose]

SadisticFishing has already said he's using his own definition for something (ruling an Attack Power synonymous to an Attack) because it's the only one that makes sense to him. There's nothing to be debated here. It's called "house ruling". If that's the way he wants to roll, and his group likes it, super duper. As soon as you start claiming that your definition supersedes the definition in the rules, there's no longer a rules based answer for right or wrong. It's become DM's discretion, and that's it.

Sorry, but I'm out of popcorn.