Clubhouse: The Shearing Pen

[Gansk]

I don't remember ever saying that the summon monster list was expanded. I did introduce restrictions on gating in creatures. There are no restrictions on summon monster if you use the PHB. If you want to expand the list, we will need to discuss it.

 

[Greybar]

Okay, I know that the BoED has an appendix that lists what "Summon Monster" or "Summon Nature's Ally" spells would apply to summoning selected creatures in those books. I don't have it handy at the moment, but that way a Musteval or a Ursinal could be summoned. Since we're using those creatures, and generally using rules from those books (such as draconic reach), I think it makes sense to use those expansions to the summoning tables as well. I thought we'd even done that once before (I summoned a pack of mustevals once before I was pretty sure), but I thought I'd check before I did it now since I couldn't see anything explicitly allowing it in the rules.

While I'm more familiar with the BoED than the MMII, FF, etc. I would hope that WoTC had the presence of mind to have expanded lists in those, too.

 

[PJSlavner]

While I'm more familiar with the BoED than the MMII, FF, etc. I would hope that WoTC had the presence of mind to have expanded lists in those, too.

They did not have the presence of mind to do that in the other books. The MMIII, however, does mention in some monsters' entries what MS or SNA spell can be used to summon them, but it still does not have a list anywhere.

 

[Gansk]

I thought we'd even done that once before (I summoned a pack of mustevals once before I was pretty sure), but I thought I'd check before I did it now since I couldn't see anything explicitly allowing it in the rules.

I remember that, but I thought it was a BoED creature who had the specific power to summon mustevals. It was some sort of Deva/Angel, but if it was just using the PHB Summon Monster spell to access BoED creatures, I have no objection to that as they probably meet the qualifications outlined in the TBoAA rules for using the PHB gate spell.

 

[Infiniti2000]

I'm tired of the no chicken draw rule. Why can a flier stay out of reach in his medium, but a burrower can't? That's not exactly fair. Has anyone else noticed that a landbound combatant has not won a fight in probably about the last 500 fights? At least not from anything but the final attack.

That said, I'm too aggravated and frustrated on that rule and others to continue. Someone else throw NE and CE under the bus.

 

[Gansk]

I'm sorry you feel that way, Infiniti. Is there anything we can do that will change your mind?

If a dragon or other flying creature didn't have a ranged attack, it would have to come down to melee under the chicken draw rule. So I'm not sure if that is the exact rule you feel is unfair. If you are rather referring to the pave-over-the-arena-with-stone rule, we can take that away, as long as the burrowing creature makes a good faith effort to beat his opponent before burrowing away to save his skin.

I can understand that playing losers in a CR mismatch can feel something like Sisyphus pushing a rock. I didn't predict that this situation would occur when I started, it just turned out that way. If we just patiently plow through the current situation, it will eventually correct itself and the more even match-ups will reappear.

 

[Infiniti2000]

I tried to keep a brave face on, and have done so for quite a long time. Plowing through 85 or so CE monsters against the thunder worm was not exactly fun. But, at least I could play them as knowing what they were getting into and not attempt futile tactics. Now, I have to spend time and effort on creatures and try not to metagame knowing they are freakin' useless. The Styx dragon was the last straw. I tried not to metagame, I had him come back out from the ground, but that really just sucks.

What makes matters worse is that I know all Greybar has to do is have the elemental fight the dragon while the planetar does nothing but fill the eastern edge with a few more blade barriers. Who wants to start off each combat running through 4 blade barriers? How is that fun for anyone, including Greybar? How does it in any way help with the purpose of the BoAA knowing it won't be fun?

As for the burrowing thing, I don't know what the answer is. It's just irritating as hell to have monster-after-monster come in with great melee abilities and zero ranged abilities, and be completely useless. And then there are creatures like Meineke that just makes things suck. 80+ damage per round in which there is no way to negate it? Who has a +20 reflex save just to have a 50% chance or so to take half damage? Who has a 20 caster level to overcome SR only half the time?

It's just not fun, but I have no answer. We instituted the chicken draw rule to avoid a similar 'not fun' feeling on the other end of the spectrum. I'm sure Greybar would be extremely irritated to have one of his best monsters take a draw (albeit VERY under-CR'd monster -- I mean, really, a 17th level cleric is CR17, why when you had the HUGE number of additional abilities of the planetar the CR drops?).

My feelings on this, btw, has nothing to do with anyone here. I think everyone here does a superb job on all aspects of the battle, but all of the current fights in Elysium and Celestia are frustrating and have been for a very long time, going back even to CE vs. N. I am not forgetting what I'm sure was similar frustration for PJSlavner against CN or ugulu against N and then CG.

The CR disparity and then what basically amounts to a supreme EL disadvantage (advantageous/disadvantageous terrain) is a big damper. I can handle losing, I think I've proven that, but the frustration and irritation finally got to me.

 

[Infiniti2000]

Let's reconsider the Styx dragon vs. the planetar. If the styx dragon goes underground for 5 rounds, why is it assumed that he's taking the draw? If the planetar doesn't follow, why isn't it the planetar that is taking the draw? The fact is that the planetar cannot burrow, but then neither can the styx dragon fly.

Shouldn't fliers be forced to land against land-bound opponents just like burrowers are forced to stay above ground against land-bound/flying opponents?

 

[Gansk]

Let's reconsider the Styx dragon vs. the planetar. If the styx dragon goes underground for 5 rounds, why is it assumed that he's taking the draw? If the planetar doesn't follow, why isn't it the planetar that is taking the draw? The fact is that the planetar cannot burrow, but then neither can the styx dragon fly.

Shouldn't fliers be forced to land against land-bound opponents just like burrowers are forced to stay above ground against land-bound/flying opponents?

Whoever doesn't try to damage the other guy is 'taking the draw', regardless of the terrain. If the Styx dragon went underground to force the planetar to land and stomp on the ground, that's a perfectly valid tactic. If the planetar chose not to land in that circumstance, then it is the planetar that is taking the draw. But if the planetar landed and the styx dragon didn't come back up, then it is the dragon who is taking the draw. If the planetar didn't have a ranged attack, then he would be forced to land against and landbound or burrowing opponents.

 

[Gansk]

My feelings on this, btw, has nothing to do with anyone here. I think everyone here does a superb job on all aspects of the battle, but all of the current fights in Elysium and Celestia are frustrating and have been for a very long time, going back even to CE vs. N. I am not forgetting what I'm sure was similar frustration for PJSlavner against CN or ugulu against N and then CG.

I have a great deal of respect for your intelligence and playing ability, so I would hope that you could still represent CN in the ToC and in the Battle, since the CR disparity should be mostly eliminated at that point. Your kibitzing is always welcome at any rate.

I personally think watching someone try to survive four blade barriers is fun, but I don't have a stake in who wins or who loses. I obviously don't want anyone to feel frustration or irritation, so whatever you need to do to alleviate those feelings is in my best interest as well.