Clubhouse: The Shearing Pen

An AMF inside the Zone really doesn't sound like a good idea to me. For one, it would negate any buffs, which really sucks when a combatant is forced to fight there. For example, not only would St. George have to come down and fight, but all of his tremendous powers would be gone. That's totally uncool.

I doubt you'll see the Zone walled off, but you could perhaps dispel any spell effects inside the zone when a combatant is defeated. You could also rule that the victory doesn't occur in the zone if the combatant forces/keeps his opponent out. The purpose of the zone is to ensure combat. It's not supposed to allow for additional victory conditions. So, if you keep your opponent out, then it's a draw, not a victory.
 

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Congratulations on a very entertaining tournament so far! I hope that I'm not out of line for weighing in here, but this discussion caught my interest. A few thoughts:
  • The wording of the victory condition suggests an interesting way to transform the battlefield in one side's favor: turn the goal into a pit, and only a creature that flies can stand at ground level, plus foes who don't still can't reach you to make melee attacks. I'm not sure if you'd consider this abuse or good strategy, but the adamantine floor would prevent it (and also make a fine marker).
  • An antimagic field around the borders of the goal would cripple some combatants by blocking their spells and spell-like abilities. In particular, a dragon affected by confusion gas could stand or fly there and use its own breath weapon, a supernatural ability, with impunity.
  • Another solution to the wall-off-the-goal tactic would be to set the battles in a demiplane or domain where barrier spells have the impeded magic trait, a heavily reduced duration, or both. This would, at the same time, remove one of the most significant home-court advantages: a creature (such as St. George) with holy word, blasphemy and the like on his home plane can banish his extraplanar opponents, but they cannot do the same to him.
  • An alternative would be for the same spellcaster who teleports champions in and out to destroy the barriers immediately after they force one defeat.
  • Although I like the new victory condition, another approach might be to address the problem that makes the evil alignments seek a draw: the huge disparity in roster sizes and match CRs. A solution might be to change the terms of the contest to something more like the Tournament of Champions: one champion per alignment per CR, from 1/2 to 21. I would recommend limiting each roster to no more than one monster from the same close group (that is, at most one true dragon, one planar dragon, one linnorm, one drake, one elf, one tanar'ri, one golem and so on) and allowing some limited customization, as for generals.
  • While he remains Huge, St. George's size penalty to attack rolls and AC should be -2. This has nothing to do with the rules change; I just thought I'd mention it.

Go Lawful Good!
 
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Welcome, Lorehead! You are definitely not out of line. We certainly welcome all input and it is most gratifying to see that we have hidden lurkers.

Regarding, St. George, keep in mind that he has -2 total, but only -1 more than his normal Large size.
 

Lore-head! Lore-head! If you like Lawful Good, you may want to volunteer to run them in the Tournament of Champions. I also need someone to help with Neutral Evil. Mippadon, you still there?

Thanks for input - it is much appreciated. Some thoughts on what you've said -

Your'e absolutely right, we should go with the adamantine floor to prevent stone shape spells. Good call on that one.

You forgot one thing about the antimagic field that I forgot as well - supernatural abilities like breath weapon don't work there. But we can go with Infiniti's idea for now - a greater dispel magic at 20th level is cast inside the zone area when any opponent is defeated. That may mean you will still lose buffs, but it is your choice now. Win by the zone or win by beating the other guy up (which should still be the most popular way to win).

All the arenas have names that indicate the planes, but all of them are on the Prime Material to even out any potential planar advantages.

I would like some freedom for monsters to use their barrier spells, and I don't like the idea of arbitrarily deciding when a barrier spell is used unfairly. The mods have to make enough judgement calls as it is. I would like something mechanical like the dispel magic suggestion mentioned above.

Sorry, but the rosters are set in stone at this point. We have already played with 90% of the roster, so there's no turning back now. I already spent major hours working on them, but I will take suggestions on how to modify the rosters for the Battle of All Alignments II.

I'm going to Las Vegas and will be back on Tuesday, but I need help with solving the following dilemma - monster A enters the arena, dives into the water, and holds his breath.
Monster B responds by moving to the victory zone. Five rounds later, a draw occurs barely before the victory condition occurs.

Some ideas to solve this dilemma:
Monsters can't hold their breath in this water for some reason - they immediately start drowning if they can't breathe water or swim.

Cut the victory zone condition down to three or four rounds, so they always beat the chicken draws, no matter what terrain they take advantage of. (I like this one the best).

If a monster is on the victory zone when a draw condition occurs, that monster can choose to negate the draw and keep the combatants in the arena.
 

Gansk said:
Lore-head! Lore-head!
Thank you, thank you. Here, want an autograph? Lorehead

If you like Lawful Good, you may want to volunteer to run them in the Tournament of Champions.
Perhaps, if time permits. Or Lawful Evil: it's also within one step of the True Lawful spirit of the game, and if I'm going to make mistakes and learn on the job, it might as well be while I'm serving up cannon fodder for Chaos to mow through like chaff.

You forgot one thing about the antimagic field that I forgot as well - supernatural abilities like breath weapon don't work there.
Good point; antimagic creates so many corner-case headaches (q.v. "Design & Development") that it turned into a nuclear weapon (q.v. "Design & Development") in our groups. I've hardly ever played with it.

But we can go with Infiniti's idea for now - a greater dispel magic at 20th level is cast inside the zone area when any opponent is defeated. That may mean you will still lose buffs, but it is your choice now. Win by the zone or win by beating the other guy up (which should still be the most popular way to win).
I'd advise against this. First, this wouldn't even remove some of the barrier spells people are likely to use (such as wall of force). Second, it would again encourage some enemies to seek chicken draws against opponents who buff themselves. Our goal here, if I understand correctly, is to make the players want to run interesting battles.

Possible alternatives:
  • The battle takes place on a plane with an unusual morphic trait.
  • There are actually a number of different arenas, and the winner of each round teleports to a new one, while the groundskeepers clear out the original with Mordenkainen's disjunction or the like.
  • The arena is alive and it heals itself, filling in pits, regrowing walls and ceilings, and absorbing barriers. This takes five rounds or so.
  • New opponents can choose to teleport on either side of the barrier.
  • Whoever cast the barrier is teleported to the other side at the same time as the next opponent teleports in. The normal saving throw applies.

All the arenas have names that indicate the planes, but all of them are on the Prime Material to even out any potential planar advantages.
That's very confusing; there aren't any World Cup venues in Germany named Ghana or Brazil.

I would like some freedom for monsters to use their barrier spells, and I don't like the idea of arbitrarily deciding when a barrier spell is used unfairly. The mods have to make enough judgement calls as it is. I would like something mechanical like the dispel magic suggestion mentioned above.
If anyone's suggested otherwise, I must have missed it.

Sorry, but the rosters are set in stone at this point. We have already played with 90% of the roster, so there's no turning back now. I already spent major hours working on them, but I will take suggestions on how to modify the rosters for the Battle of All Alignments II.
I was also thinking in terms of the next battle, although the new arenas could host the upcoming semifinals.

I'm going to Las Vegas and will be back on Tuesday, but I need help with solving the following dilemma - monster A enters the arena, dives into the water, and holds his breath.
Monster B responds by moving to the victory zone. Five rounds later, a draw occurs barely before the victory condition occurs.
Any of your ideas could work, but I'd suggest being more radical. With the new victory condition, do we even need automatic draws? If a monster can't or won't fight, it should lose. If two monsters find it almost impossible to damage each other, we can go into time compression. If two monsters are actually immune to each other's attacks and can't force any of the other victory conditions, both sides should be willing to accept the draw.
 
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Gansk said:
But we can go with Infiniti's idea for now - a greater dispel magic at 20th level is cast inside the zone area when any opponent is defeated.
That wasn't my idea at all. I meant to remove effects NOT on creatures or their equipment. So, any wall of fire, stinking cloud, etc., would get removed. But, a fully buffed creature would not. I'd even be okay with the victor being teleported out of the arena, a 20th-level area-effect greater dispel magic filling the victory zone, and then the victor being returned. If high caster level effects exist there, they might not even get removed.

Gansk said:
...but I will take suggestions on how to modify the rosters for the Battle of All Alignments II.
I'd like to see more of the sample creatures included, particularly those for prestige classes and such. It'd be nice to get some classed characters that were created for playing reasons and not powergamed for an arena combat, and that we didn't have to spend a lot of time to create.

Gansk said:
I'm going to Las Vegas and will be back on Tuesday, but I need help with solving the following dilemma - monster A enters the arena, dives into the water, and holds his breath. Monster B responds by moving to the victory zone. Five rounds later, a draw occurs barely before the victory condition occurs.
You could simply make the victory condition 4 rounds, or extend the draw condition to 6 rounds or even longer.

Gansk said:
Monsters can't hold their breath in this water for some reason - they immediately start drowning if they can't breathe water or swim.
No, I dislike this idea. Changing the normal rules is rarely a good idea.

Gansk said:
If a monster is on the victory zone when a draw condition occurs, that monster can choose to negate the draw and keep the combatants in the arena.
Hmm, that is interesting. I would amend that idea to say that the monster needs to be in the zone for 3 rounds before having the ability to make such a decision.

Lorehead said:
Perhaps, if time permits. Or Lawful Evil: it's also within one step of the True Lawful spirit of the game, and if I'm going to make mistakes and learn on the job, it might as well be while I'm serving up cannon fodder for Chaos to mow through like chaff.
ugulu has LE.
 

Does this look right?
its a picture of the excell sheet I use.
 

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Evilhalfling said:
Does this look right?
its a picture of the excell sheet I use.
No, there are three issues. The first is that the victory zone is only 40ft per side. This is not your fault, though, it's Gansk's. Just change the position of 80n40e to 80n45e and you'll see what I mean. Gansk, when you read this, please update the description in the Rules if you agree.

The second issue is that you don't have the tree canopies marked (20ft cube from 100z to the top). Maybe you didn't find it necessary, but it is certainly a feature and I'm guessing will come into play at some point.

The third issue is that the water is at -10z. This is important because it means that swimming creatures cannot escape the water without a climb check or flying or unless they're really big.
 

I don't think my description is wrong. It appears to me that the spreadsheet has the victory zone starting at 35E.

Also I intended the water to be at surface level except where it dips underneath the victory zone floor. The description has been changed to reflect this fact more clearly.
 

Gansk said:
I don't think my description is wrong. It appears to me that the spreadsheet has the victory zone starting at 35E.
(edited paragraph) You're right that Evilhalfling's spreadsheet is wrong. But, it's wrong because it starts at 5e instead of 0e. The first square on the left side should be 0e. So, your description is right in that regard, Gansk. However, the right-hand pillar should be at 75e, not 80e, because the plates do not extend into 80e (they are on the left edge of those squares.

Gansk said:
Also I intended the water to be at surface level except where it dips underneath the victory zone floor. The description has been changed to reflect this fact more clearly.
How does it do that? Is there a waterfall at either side of the victory zone plate? ;)
 
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