Clueless DM

[Phlebas]

Why doesn't the cleric make a Search or Spot check every time she makes a heal check to spot one of these hoarded items.....
If she spots them then she can bring up the issue in game."Hey thats a new ring, where did it come from?"

Just the threat of this should make the other players more honest - let face it, the cleric does get to effectively search every character every heal check...... and theres no way a PC can get away with saying, he doesn't want to be checked, just healed.....

Its a nice rule based solution that no-one should complain about. the rogues will have better sleight of hand to hide stuff, but eventually the cleric will roll a 20.... (and you shouldn't be abel to take 20 on hiding items that you are, or might use - sewing a ring into the lining of your shirt keeps it hidden but doesn't make it accessible when you need it....)

Oh, and the DM has to take his share of the blame for this one (along with some of the more selfish players)- especially since you've brought it up and he's now in denial. Its probably not deliberate but every DM has to learn to bend the rules in favour of team play and not independence or you quickly lose control of the game.

 

[Elf Witch]

This DM hasn't made any mistake I didn't make when I was a younger and less experienced DM. I once had a player who had driven three hours to game, WAIT to be introduced, because his character concept was someone out of the home base region of the players, and because of the game speed that the players were doing (one or two players were involved in some high action sequences), his PC had to WAIT to be introduced. He drove three hours, and then waited four more, not gaming, and left a bit ticked off. It's something I very much regret years later, but I learned a lesson not to let other players monopolize the spotlight for too long, because it's a team game. We're all there to have a moment for our character to shine, and if others steal the spotlight, the DM is the last defense to make sure everyone gets some fun time in for their PC.

Fortunately, I learned an important lesson on the DM's role in a game session. Unfortunately, it was one of the last times I gamed with this friend, before he stopped driving up to see us. A DM needs to control the flow of a game (when it stops and starts, when things are too dull, when there needs to be an action break) as best he can; it's not ALL up to him, but he is the driving force.

The players in this game are not jerks and the DM is not one either. I think a lot of things just got out of hand.

The player playing the rogue is new to gaming is only 18 and is very exicited to be playing he is really getting into his character. I don't think he is being as ass on purpose. I think he just loves getting to use all his skills and he does not have enough experience yet to understand all the in game consquences of his actions.

The lone wolf player should know better he has been playing a long time but he is going through some major personal issues in his life his girlfriend is dying from cancer. So I think one of the reasons the DM played out the encounters away from the table and made them so detailed and made a mini session out of it was to take his mind off the pain he is in.

It is also why I think the other players have been hesistant to bring all this stuff up and complain about the things bugging them.

There is a lot going on which has not helped but I think the DM does not realize the power he has to help make the game rum smoother.

The teen rogue issues could be handled in game with spot checks eventuallly the other characters are going to catch him and here comes the in game consquences.

If the DM didn't want to kill the lone wolf character he could have simply made it very boring and over very fast.

I guess the way I look at it is the DM should be aware of what is going on in his game and if his actions are contributing to the issues.

 

[Sigdel]

Now who usually has the best search the rogue does. The player who plays the rogue writes notes to the DM to let him know that he is stealing the items. So the other players have no reason to ask for spot checks. I asked my roommate about it and she said that she tried asking for spot checks anytime she saw a note going to the DM and he got mad.

I can understand that but when I DM if I have a player pulling this kind of stuff I roll spot checks for the other players to see if they notice something going on. It evens the playing field.

If I was the cleric with the issue I would note to the DM that Spot checks are more of an automatic skill. Or the DM could start slipping in cursed items that "latch" themselvs on to the rogue. And guess who the only one is that can remove the cursed item? The cleric. Now the rogue is faced with a choice: 1) suffer the ill effect(s) of the item(s) or 2) Confess and repent. Either way I hope he would learn his lesson.
This group will implode. It's just a matter of when. And how bad the fallout will be.

 

[BlackMoria]

The problem is both a DM and player problem. The DM for failing to properly manage his campaign and be fair and equitable to all players, and a few problem players whose idea of fun is at the expense of the rest of the other players.

Well, you bought your concerns to the DM and basically got blown off. You did your part.

So what now?

If several other players feel the same (I imagine that the rest of the party other than the rogue character's player might be in the same frame of mind), then a group discussion with the DM is in order. Unity through numbers might impress upon the DM that he needs to MANAGE his campaign, not just let it happen. If he still is adamant that everything is fair and in the up and up, then challenge that assertion and demand that everyone else who is lagging behind in levels and treasure be given opportunities to equalize to the most advantaged player. Or you walk.

If several players make reasonable demands and threaten to leave on this account if they are brushed off - that carries weight with the DM, because unless he has a waiting list for his game, his game is now going to significantly change and not for the better when he loses players.

DMing is not just running a campaign, it is managing a campaign and dealing in a fair and equitable manner with all the players.

 

[takyris]

Yep. Spot checks, and Sense Motive when the party rogue insists that he bought the stuff back in the last town -- AND when he insists that he didn't find anything. The rogue will have a big bonus, but statistically, he's gonna blow it at least once.

And when he does, you (as cleric) will be fully justified in withholding healing. Forever.

Out of game, I don't know how to solve this one. I try not to game with people who are inclined to play characters who'd hide loot to get an extra share. In the long run, that just hurts the whole party.

 

[Elf Witch]

The problem is both a DM and player problem. The DM for failing to properly manage his campaign and be fair and equitable to all players, and a few problem players whose idea of fun is at the expense of the rest of the other players.

Well, you bought your concerns to the DM and basically got blown off. You did your part.

So what now?

If several other players feel the same (I imagine that the rest of the party other than the rogue character's player might be in the same frame of mind), then a group discussion with the DM is in order. Unity through numbers might impress upon the DM that he needs to MANAGE his campaign, not just let it happen. If he still is adamant that everything is fair and in the up and up, then challenge that assertion and demand that everyone else who is lagging behind in levels and treasure be given opportunities to equalize to the most advantaged player. Or you walk.

If several players make reasonable demands and threaten to leave on this account if they are brushed off - that carries weight with the DM, because unless he has a waiting list for his game, his game is now going to significantly change and not for the better when he loses players.

DMing is not just running a campaign, it is managing a campaign and dealing in a fair and equitable manner with all the players.

I am not a player in this game but I know all the players which is why the DM came to me for advice.

I have given him advice and I gave my roommate advice. And that advice is at this point in the situation they need to have a talk with everyone and come up with away to solve the issues.

I brought it up here on En world for a twofold reason one I wanted a little back up to make sure I had said the right things and second as learning thing for other DMs faced with the same problems.

I have learned a lot about being a good DM from reading these boards and finding out how other DMs solve problems.

 

[Nonlethal Force]

That said, just because the character doesn't know about it doesn't mean that the player can't take action. Quite simply, she should be pointing out that what they're doing is unacceptable and that she won't play with jerks. Any response that "that's what my character would do" should be met with "then you need a new character". You can't hide behind your character's personality as an excuse for bad behaviour, since you create that personality and are in total control of it.

I think there is some really good advice here. I see this as mostly a player problem as well. If you sit at the table with people who are hiding behind their characters then you are going to play with people that don't hide their jerk tendencies. This is actually one of the reasons I hate CN alignments when used with the rogue class. Most players take this to mean they can do whatever they wantand not ahve to justify it. But that is a player hiding behind something he created. The character should not be in charge, yet it is.

Tell the players to grow a backbone and create characters that make a fun game for everyone, not fun for them and ruinous for others.

Now, I'm not saying people can't get the spotlight from time to time. And I'm not saying item distribution has to be even, either. But I am saying that those should be areas of group decision. When one person circumvents the natural order fo game design it is going to cause hard feelings. That's the rogue players' problem.

Having said that, the DM should own up to his own areas of fault. By not giving the cleric spot checks, by not occasionally giving really hard circumstantial penalties to the rogue's sleight of hand, etc. Just like the players cannot hide behind their characters, DMs cannot hide behind the rules. Ultimately the person in charge of implementing the rules is the DM. The rules are not in charge, the DM is.

Get this issue resolved, and likely OOCly, too. Your group needs to come to an understanding about classes like rogues as to what is fun for all. That needs to be settled OOCly.

 

[Elf Witch]

I think there is some really good advice here. I see this as mostly a player problem as well. If you sit at the table with people who are hiding behind their characters then you are going to play with people that don't hide their jerk tendencies. This is actually one of the reasons I hate CN alignments when used with the rogue class. Most players take this to mean they can do whatever they wantand not ahve to justify it. But that is a player hiding behind something he created. The character should not be in charge, yet it is.

Tell the players to grow a backbone and create characters that make a fun game for everyone, not fun for them and ruinous for others.

Now, I'm not saying people can't get the spotlight from time to time. And I'm not saying item distribution has to be even, either. But I am saying that those should be areas of group decision. When one person circumvents the natural order fo game design it is going to cause hard feelings. That's the rogue players' problem.

Having said that, the DM should own up to his own areas of fault. By not giving the cleric spot checks, by not occasionally giving really hard circumstantial penalties to the rogue's sleight of hand, etc. Just like the players cannot hide behind their characters, DMs cannot hide behind the rules. Ultimately the person in charge of implementing the rules is the DM. The rules are not in charge, the DM is.

Get this issue resolved, and likely OOCly, too. Your group needs to come to an understanding about classes like rogues as to what is fun for all. That needs to be settled OOCly.

When I DM I don't allow CN or any evil at all. Its just asking for trouble. And I always talk to the players before the bring a rogue in and find out how they are going to play it.

I don't mind a rogue who once in awhile pockets an extra item. But it does not make sense to me that a rogue will always be stealing from the people who are standing between him and the orc with the great axe or from the person who heals all his wounds. That is just common sense.

 

[Vocenoctum]

I don't think the game is rigged. The DM told me that when he plans encounters he has a list of treasure a head of time and they only get it if they defeat the encounter and they have to roll searches to find the items.

Now who usually has the best search the rogue does. The player who plays the rogue writes notes to the DM to let him know that he is stealing the items. So the other players have no reason to ask for spot checks. I asked my roommate about it and she said that she tried asking for spot checks anytime she saw a note going to the DM and he got mad.

As others have mentioned, Spot checks are not an active thing. You don't "try" to Spot. (Heck, that's pretty much what Search is)

That said, it should be easy enough to rig treasure lists to provide for plenty of stuff that is useful to other PC's and useless to the rogue. Don't have a shop nearby and/or make the item important to the plot, but only useful to the cleric.

Either way, the DM seems a bit clueless sure, but the cleric's player should have addressed the issue in a different manner too. As mentioned, hiding behind a characters rogueish behaviour is no excuse, and she should have told the DM she wasn't having fun watching her PC fall behind because she's not so selfish as the rogue. Then she should switch to a rogue-cleric of Olidammara or something and beat the rogue at his own game...

 

[Vocenoctum]

When I DM I don't allow CN or any evil at all. Its just asking for trouble. And I always talk to the players before the bring a rogue in and find out how they are going to play it.

Half my players don't believe in alignment (I treat them as Neutral) and don't select such.

I don't mind a rogue who once in awhile pockets an extra item. But it does not make sense to me that a rogue will always be stealing from the people who are standing between him and the orc with the great axe or from the person who heals all his wounds. That is just common sense.

I DMed a halfling rogue in a game once that kept pickpocketing folks in town, then treated it like my fault when he was caught and punished. Most of our current groups aren't big on Rogue's at all. (I think the last rogue in our groups was my halfling rogue that thought the gods had told him to be a hero to earn his afterlife, so he was continually trying to save people, but only if the numbers were there. Save 10 villagers, fine, save 1 villager? Probably not worth the trouble, since you already saved 5 villagers last week...)