Mishihari Lord
First Post
This is not at all the DMs fault. The DM should not tell players how to play their characters, period. If the players aren't cooperating, if someone isn't having fun, they need to work it out among themselves.
Clueless DM
- Thread starter Elf Witch
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Arashi Ravenblade
First Post
Ive had characters hoard items before. The other players usually threaten to kill the offender. That alone is enough to stop it.
As far as lone wolfs go. Having them run into many, many encounters they cant handle usualy stops that too.
As far as lone wolfs go. Having them run into many, many encounters they cant handle usualy stops that too.
Elf Witch said:
One of the things that goes along with this sort of rule is the players not trying to screw over the other players. You might want to bring that up with the player of the rogue. As far as stealing from your comrades go, emphisize to the player that these are the people his character's life depends on. Perhaps put it in Mafia Terms, you don't steal from "family".
The player who's getting the solo adventures and the XP+Treasure to go along with them is a more complex problem. I can understand the DM wanting to cut the guy some slack and even toss some bonuses his way, but if he's now levels ahead of the rest of the party then he's getting too much. One thing that should help, is that he should be getting less XP. Since under 3.5 Xp calculations are based off of the character's level not the party's, it's a subtle point that I suspect a lot of people have missed in the 3.5 changes over 3.0.
jollyninja
First Post
I had the theft problem when my girlfriend first joined my DnD group. It's actually pretty easy to deal with. You take the problem player aside and put it like this: at some point the other characters will have a choice. This choice will involve your character's survival or some other option that is more beneficial to them ie. taking all the stuff you got through dishonest means and selling it while you make a new character when they decide you are not worth rezzing.
the next session, the players esentialls left her to her own devices against a couple of goblin riding worgs while they mopped up a few baddies and searched some chests. She lived and had only two hp left. She never stole from the group again.
as for a two level disparity between characters, that is inexcusable. A slight ammount of extra xp for the occasional side quest would be fine (i scrapped xp for a plot point based leveling system ie. you achieved stage one of your objective, everyone levels) but two levels is rediculous. that is a severe dm issue. I've experienced it, in games i no longer play in. that and horrific DM pc's are the reason i started DMing, i knew there had to be a better way to do it. now i can't get anyone else in my group to gm, even the old gm's for the group.
the next session, the players esentialls left her to her own devices against a couple of goblin riding worgs while they mopped up a few baddies and searched some chests. She lived and had only two hp left. She never stole from the group again.
as for a two level disparity between characters, that is inexcusable. A slight ammount of extra xp for the occasional side quest would be fine (i scrapped xp for a plot point based leveling system ie. you achieved stage one of your objective, everyone levels) but two levels is rediculous. that is a severe dm issue. I've experienced it, in games i no longer play in. that and horrific DM pc's are the reason i started DMing, i knew there had to be a better way to do it. now i can't get anyone else in my group to gm, even the old gm's for the group.
DonTadow
First Post
It's hard being a DM. At one point, you want everyone to have fun and you're just running a game. ON the other point, you're the referee of the game and must keep an eye out for problems and correct them.
If players are hoarding loot, and he knows its a problem, he should install a system where all loot is shared with the rest of the party.
Of course, you dont want to alienate the thieves of the party. If there is an item that is not "powerful or important to the party" for character reasons I'll let him attempt a slight of hand, vs. the spot check of everyone in the party. It's one of the only roles I will allow a player to make against another player. Any roll that is necessary against another player, is hidden and I just provide the results. Harsh rules, but if you're not playing the game as adversarial between pcs, there shouldn't be any rolling against one another.
As for the solo missions. Every charachter needs a chance to break out, but it should incorporate the rest of the team. I don't have any hard rules for this. I tell my players to figure out a reason why their charachter is staying with the party. I don't do the "batman" anymore. I used to, but now I just tell players that d and d is a cooperative game. If someone neeeds to do something alone, we save it to emails or the forum after session.
YOur DM could easily set up a forum or thread here on enworld or any othre rpg website .
If players are hoarding loot, and he knows its a problem, he should install a system where all loot is shared with the rest of the party.
Of course, you dont want to alienate the thieves of the party. If there is an item that is not "powerful or important to the party" for character reasons I'll let him attempt a slight of hand, vs. the spot check of everyone in the party. It's one of the only roles I will allow a player to make against another player. Any roll that is necessary against another player, is hidden and I just provide the results. Harsh rules, but if you're not playing the game as adversarial between pcs, there shouldn't be any rolling against one another.
As for the solo missions. Every charachter needs a chance to break out, but it should incorporate the rest of the team. I don't have any hard rules for this. I tell my players to figure out a reason why their charachter is staying with the party. I don't do the "batman" anymore. I used to, but now I just tell players that d and d is a cooperative game. If someone neeeds to do something alone, we save it to emails or the forum after session.
YOur DM could easily set up a forum or thread here on enworld or any othre rpg website .
If Lone-wolf behavior is rewarded it will continue. I think one of the main reasons it so rarely gets curbed the way it ought to is that sometimes the most plausible outcome is a n outright kill. When the Rogue goess off on his own, he either gets caught and/or killed or he as often as not comes back with what he wants. It shouldn't take a conscious effort to kill the lone wolf, just a world sufficiently populated with hazards to be a threat to the group should be an almost automatic kill to a single member operating on his own. If you have a running enemy, that can also serve as a deterrant. If there is someone out there just dying to whipe the party, but they can't quite manage everyone all at once, then anyone who goes off alone is asking to show up on a mideaval milk carton. If that kind of thing is going on, and if he really doesn't want it to continue, then the DM might want to think about some deterrants.
For most characters it's not easy to get and learn what an item is on the sly. Is the DM allowing them to sneak items without the proper skill checks? How do the other characters know what the items are? Is the DM making it too easy to figure it out? Without a Slight of Hand check, I see know reason a Cleric couldn't notice the grab, even whil casting a spell. And without good divination (preferrably "Identify" but at least Detect Magic), I see no reason why a character with an item grabbed on the sly would know what it is. He could either solicit help from the party or spend time and money trying to figure it out for himself. SHouldn't the other members of the party get a spot check to notice new items appearing in use in the middle of the dungeon? Wouldn't the Cleric notice when bodies appear already looted as she checks them herself?
Going the very direct and very calculated route, he coud plant an item that others (powerful NPCs) will be asking about later. When a Rogue comes up with an item that no-one else knew about and the party gets in trouble for it that will make the player think twice about his behavior. Alternatively, he could plant an item which would be extremely useful to the Cleric but marginally useful to a Rogue. Then engineer a game where success depends on whether or not the item made it to the right hands. Anyway, those are just ideas. What I do think is that there is no use whining about behavior that seems for all practical purposes to work.
I don't know about venting person to person anger in the form of a character, nor do I think it's that bad if a character is acting judgemental. It's a character and that can be a fun feature of a character. But if it's used to communicate an indirect message, that's not very affective or fair. I think a better thing to do would be address it player to player, not demanding a specific outcome, just saying that it is very frustrating to her that others are getting stuff because her character is taking care of the party. The other players can either adjust or not, but why not make it know what is the source of frustration.
Last point, I've had Rogues that made a point to get to the magic first but didn't hoard it once they got it. Even a Rogue can figure out if the Cleric's AC is too low and that he needs her to stay alive. If the Rogue wants to pass items along "here I found this" it could help solve the problem. But once again, I think it should be a little more difficult for him to get and keep and use all this stuff on the sly. Normally, the character should need others to help figure it all out.
For most characters it's not easy to get and learn what an item is on the sly. Is the DM allowing them to sneak items without the proper skill checks? How do the other characters know what the items are? Is the DM making it too easy to figure it out? Without a Slight of Hand check, I see know reason a Cleric couldn't notice the grab, even whil casting a spell. And without good divination (preferrably "Identify" but at least Detect Magic), I see no reason why a character with an item grabbed on the sly would know what it is. He could either solicit help from the party or spend time and money trying to figure it out for himself. SHouldn't the other members of the party get a spot check to notice new items appearing in use in the middle of the dungeon? Wouldn't the Cleric notice when bodies appear already looted as she checks them herself?
Going the very direct and very calculated route, he coud plant an item that others (powerful NPCs) will be asking about later. When a Rogue comes up with an item that no-one else knew about and the party gets in trouble for it that will make the player think twice about his behavior. Alternatively, he could plant an item which would be extremely useful to the Cleric but marginally useful to a Rogue. Then engineer a game where success depends on whether or not the item made it to the right hands. Anyway, those are just ideas. What I do think is that there is no use whining about behavior that seems for all practical purposes to work.
I don't know about venting person to person anger in the form of a character, nor do I think it's that bad if a character is acting judgemental. It's a character and that can be a fun feature of a character. But if it's used to communicate an indirect message, that's not very affective or fair. I think a better thing to do would be address it player to player, not demanding a specific outcome, just saying that it is very frustrating to her that others are getting stuff because her character is taking care of the party. The other players can either adjust or not, but why not make it know what is the source of frustration.
Last point, I've had Rogues that made a point to get to the magic first but didn't hoard it once they got it. Even a Rogue can figure out if the Cleric's AC is too low and that he needs her to stay alive. If the Rogue wants to pass items along "here I found this" it could help solve the problem. But once again, I think it should be a little more difficult for him to get and keep and use all this stuff on the sly. Normally, the character should need others to help figure it all out.
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igavskoga
First Post
Unless the cleric is in another room she should be getting a reflexive spot check to notice what the Rogue is doing, since the Rogue is being observed, even if only casually, in his sleight of hand attempt.
Personally, I would also rule that since the creature is dead, he is in essence palming the object, hence his target for Sleight of Hand (who he is trying to hide the action from) is not the dead guy but the other people in the room and again, this would call for a reflexive spot check.
It could also be pointed out that stealing from friends or comrades or people who trust you and you trust not only flies right in the face of the big "No Party Conflict" rule that the DM seems to be ignoring, but also may fly in the face of his alignment as well. Yes, some rogues steal. A lot of rogue's steal. That does not mean they all steal indiscriminately or are immune from the consequences of their actions.
After a prolonged period I would dare say that simple logic on the part of the cleric would make it obvious that this Rogue is either stealing gold or stealing items since what the Rogue has certainly seems to be quite a bit beyond what he could buy with his public "share" of the loot would otherwise indicate. That "Oh I bought it in town" bit can only go so far for so long before it just becomes flagrant and obvious (it probably already has).
Also, I would agree that even if the DM did not create the problem he is definitely helping to maintain it rather than helping to fix it. He is not living up to his responsibilities as a DM, imo, despite his rationalizations to the contrary. If a game is malfunctional or dysfunctional, and continues to be so, the DM is part of the problem for not at least facilitating, or just outright demanding, a solution that is equitable to everyone at the table.
All that being said - drama needs to be confronted immediately and resolved. Letting it fester only serves to blow things out of proportion and make the problem bigger than it actually is. Essentially it seems like everybody's at fault (those who know better, those who are getting bitter, and those who are new) so there's no use in assigning blame. Your advice is good - they all need to sit down, air it out, and discuss it. It won't just go away on its own, problems never do.
Storm Raven
First Post
Elf Witch said:
Clerics have blindness/deafness and bestow curse. They blind and curse people, that is why they have those spells. Can the rogue think of a good reason not to use it on his character? Characters have all kinds of abilities, should they use them on their fellow party members?
More to the point, if "rogues steal" is so self-evident, then the cleric should have a good reason to suspect that this one is doing so. After all, suspecting the guy who is a member of a profession that is known for stealing seems to me to be the reasonable thing to do.
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Lanefan
Victoria Rules
That right there is the problem. Up until reading this I was thinking to myself "this sounds like my kind o' game; the PC's are gonna throw down on each other, gotta love it!", but when you say the DM has banned in-party conflict (dumb house rule, by the way) you've got a mess.Elf Witch said:
Tell the DM to let the players play; even if it means the party spends more time fighting itself than the enemy, those are the sessions that are remembered long after everything else.
Lanefan
