Clueless DM

[Odhanan]

When she tried to talk to the other players they were like "how would your character know about this and why should it be a problem because it is what my character would do rogues steal it is why they have sleight of hand"

My answer would have been "well if my cleric finds out you are stealing from the party then she won't ever heal you again or if she does she will charge you for it"

Of course now you have party conflict going on and this DM really frowns on open party conflict it is one of his big no no rules.


I don't think it should all lie on the DM shoulders to encourage players talking out problems but I think a dM who rewards players even inadvertently for bad behaviors that contribute to the problems is also part of the problem.

Seems to me you all need to cool down and clearly separate the characters from the players in this issue. You can't answer to the frustration of a player by talking about character motivations. The same way, you can't answer by a threat from one character to another "if he ever finds out".

Once the guys told you about the "but rogues have sleight of hand" the answer should have been "I'm not talking about characters here. You are not a rogue in RL, and I'm not a cleric. You can still enjoy playing a rogue while not having your character steal so much stuff away from the group."

Clearly separate the issues: you players have to talk together about how the game is played. Not what the motivations of your characters are or would be in this or that situation in-game.

 

[Chimera]

All I gotta say is that this is all Human Nature.

Over the last few years, looking back at my situation; where and who I was, how I got there; how I got married to a clinically insane woman, then divorced; how I lost all my "friends", etc, etc, etc.... I had to face how I had done each and every one of those things to myself.

A lot of it boiled down to "I knew things were bad, but I had no clue how to deal with it".

So bad situations festered and became worse. Attempts to correct things met with hostility and blame. I vaccilated because of that negative feedback, which only made things worse.

We all do that sort of thing. We tolerate and/or engage in bad situations because we don't have a clue how to change them, because we're afraid to make things worse by saying something, by trying to correct it. Because the people involved are "friends" and we don't want to hurt their feelings.

The 'clueless GMs' above simply don't know how to correct their bad situations without causing additional problems.

Just like the rest of us.

 

[Elf Witch]

While I agree that the DM is partly at fault here, I doubt that you're going to get anywhere with changing his attitude unless all of the other players make the same complaints. It's hard to get people to change if they don't see anything wrong in their behavior.

I've been involved in a similar dispute recently when one player objected to another player looting and not sharing with the party. The objecting player threatened to drop out of the group. I found it unreasonable that she should expect the other players to cater to her opinion, and I think that's true in this instance as well.

I dislike letting a player conflict show up through character action. I think it's inappropriate for the cleric to do anything until the character is aware that there is something objectionable going on. The cleric's player shouldn't be asking for extra Spot rolls to catch the rogue looting, nor should the cleric's player threaten the rogue with any consequences unless the character has good in-game reasons to suspect the rogue of dubious behavior.

If it's really bothering the cleric's player then that player should talk to the rogue's player. But as long as the rogue's player isn't doing anything outrageously obnoxious then maybe the cleric's player should just get over it. What does it really matter if your imaginary characters don't have equal amounts of imaginary loot?

I should make it clear why roomie is getting really upset she is fourth level and does not have one magic item not one. And its is Eberron she also does not have the gold to really buy anything.

The rogue on the other hand who is third level because he died and the cleric borrowed money from her church to get him raised has golves of dex, amulet of health, boots of elvinkind, dozens of potions and several items he has not had identified he also has a lot of gold from selling the magic items he does not want.

The lone wolf has boots of elvenkind , gloves of dex, cloak of elvenkind, hewards handy haversack, item that allows speak with animal and a writ from the King of Breland for saving a relative on his lone wolf quest.

At this point if I was playing in this game I would get upset as well I think anyone would. The DM is frustrated that items he is putting in the game for certain characters is getting taken by the rogue but not he does not want to tell the rogue how to play his character.

The player playing the rogue needs to be told that taking items that can benefit the entire party is going to be very bad in the end because the party won't be able to handle certain CR threats. He needs to understand the metagaming aspect of this. I think the DM needs to sit down and explain it to him.

Now mr lone wolf is also pocketing items as well and I really don't understand him first of all he is a druid though he is planning on taking wizard levels and the prestige class heirophant his character background is one of magic fascination so he justifies it as part of the character.

But I also think it is more than that I think in his anger and grief over losing his girlfriend to cancer is making him bitter. Because when he played in a game with me and our party wizard was lying about the magic items saying things were nonmagical or lying about what they did when his character found out he sold the wizard to these people who put a bounty on his head and collected the bounty. Of course we rescued the wizard because we needed him but he was magic item light and he learned don't screw with the party.

Handling what he is doing is more tricky because of the outer game issues but the dM is his best friend needs to sit him down and talk to him.

 

[Elf Witch]

All I gotta say is that this is all Human Nature.

Over the last few years, looking back at my situation; where and who I was, how I got there; how I got married to a clinically insane woman, then divorced; how I lost all my "friends", etc, etc, etc.... I had to face how I had done each and every one of those things to myself.

A lot of it boiled down to "I knew things were bad, but I had no clue how to deal with it".

So bad situations festered and became worse. Attempts to correct things met with hostility and blame. I vaccilated because of that negative feedback, which only made things worse.

We all do that sort of thing. We tolerate and/or engage in bad situations because we don't have a clue how to change them, because we're afraid to make things worse by saying something, by trying to correct it. Because the people involved are "friends" and we don't want to hurt their feelings.

The 'clueless GMs' above simply don't know how to correct their bad situations without causing additional problems.

Just like the rest of us.

While I agree with this has how these situations get out of hand I think the DM coming to me for advice shows that he wants a way to fix this.

I have sent him the link for this thread and I hope he reads it and maybe gets some ideas on how to handle this situation before the game implodes.

Look how bad that could be the rogue player who is totally new comes away with this game sucks and never plays again. The lone wolf loses is outlet from life when he needs it the most and the DM who has put a lot of work into the game is left with shambles and the other two players are left with a bad taste for the DM and the other two players.

when the game first started everyone was having a lot of fun and I think they can again if they solve some of the issues in game.

 

[Lanefan]

Re: in-party brawls being memorable sessions:

Yeah, for being crappy sessions.

In my case, anyway. The sessions I remember best are when we were joking and playing with a common goal in mind, or when a player really botched something in a comedic way, not any inter-party conflict sessions. In fact, I have the same rule in my games: "Thou shalt not screw with the other players' fun."

On a broader scale than the specific issue that spawned this thread (which really *does* look messy, the more I read of it), I'm a let-'em-play ref. when I DM, and have been known to steal my share as a player if I'm playing the sort of character for whom such makes sense. Sure, party infighting doesn't advance the storyline very much, but unless your party (and group of players) is very goal-oriented - or has a toe-the-line leader with enough power to smack down any waywardness - that shouldn't matter.

It all comes down to the DM being able to mediate between people for the game, which is an important part of his skills. There's a whole brain-ful of NPCs out there to screw with; why they'd want to get other players ticked at them is beyond me. If they want the attention, they're not seeing it's a BAD kind of attention, one that could end up with NO ONE in the group getting their D&D fix.

The DM only needs to worry when the character infighting becomes player infighting....and sometimes not even then; players with disputes outside the game sometimes cathartically use their characters as substitute arguers (only with weapons and spells) and get it out of their system that way.

As for the OP's situation: if the Cleric and its player can hold out long enough, sooner or later those other guys are gonna need to be Raised, cured, whatever...and payment for such can always be demanded...

Lanefan

 

[Brimshack]

Given the list that you have just supplied, I am amazed that both the DM nor the player of the cleric have yet to come up with a plausible reason to notice what is going on. Boots and cloaks at least should be noticed, especially if he saw them on an enemy and then the Rogue. A sleight of Hand does not make others stupid. It just means you don't see the transfer.

I also think the player is going well beyond selfish and into outright foolishness, and yes I mean that as applying to the player, not just the character. At the very least it would pay to spread the potions around and if he is keeping magic items secret even at the expense of not being able to identify them, then that is letting his priorities get a little messed up.

The thing people sometimes forget is it's not just a character. If one person can't accomplish anything because they are behind the curve, then it's a person who suffers not simply a character. Admittedly they suffer boredom so I don't mean to be too meldramatic, it's not a hangin matter. But sometimes people seem to forget there is a real world element to game play, even if it's just an element of frustration. With or without a no-party-conflict rule, players ought to be more considerate.

Other Rogue options, heck declare all that yours and lend it out. As time goes on the loans become permanent and the notion that he owns everything in the party becomes a clever piece of campaign flavour. That way he still gets to play the greedy rogue and he takes care of his companions.

 

[Vocenoctum]

I should make it clear why roomie is getting really upset she is fourth level and does not have one magic item not one. And its is Eberron she also does not have the gold to really buy anything.

The rogue on the other hand who is third level because he died and the cleric borrowed money from her church to get him raised has golves of dex, amulet of health, boots of elvinkind, dozens of potions and several items he has not had identified he also has a lot of gold from selling the magic items he does not want.

The lone wolf has boots of elvenkind , gloves of dex, cloak of elvenkind, hewards handy haversack, item that allows speak with animal and a writ from the King of Breland for saving a relative on his lone wolf quest.

Looks like the Cleric needs to think up an IC reason to cast Detect Magic.

 

[Storm Raven]

Looks like the Cleric needs to think up an IC reason to cast Detect Magic.

The offending player already provided it. Apparently, it is obvious that all rogues steal. Therefore, one should expect a rogue one is traveling with to steal, and check him accordingly.

 

[Fishbone]

You just keep telling yourself it's not your fault, and stay an inch or two out of kicking distance. Mankind has got to know his limitations.

\M/ Droogie! \M/
Hmm, so the Rogue died, wonder why that happened? The DM probably feels like a dick about that level lag and I don't know why. If anything the Rogue should have got the solo adventures, "garnished wages" for the Rez cost and a stern lecture about the dangers of being a prick as an adventurer who by the book will be risking his life 3 or 4 times on an average day. Hmm, that sojourn to the spirit world should have set the Rogue sailing right IC, too.
Pissing off the cleric is never smart but when you're playing a character with a d6 and a low con and 2 poor saves its d-u-m-b stupid as hell. Rule 0: Don't piss off the DM. Rule -1: Don't piss off the healer.
As you level up you'll become a pretty good sleuth, don't fret. And his Bluff can only be as good as your Sense Motive and I'm pretty sure the Rogue should take penalties on the Bluff check.
"Are you skimming off the top?"
"Heavens to betsy no! I bought 10 times my reccomended wealth allotment on magical pimp gear in shop with money I earned doing spare jobs."
Right. Take the -5, Fast Fingers Fred!

 

[Elf Witch]

\M/ Droogie! \M/
Hmm, so the Rogue died, wonder why that happened? The DM probably feels like a dick about that level lag and I don't know why. If anything the Rogue should have got the solo adventures, "garnished wages" for the Rez cost and a stern lecture about the dangers of being a prick as an adventurer who by the book will be risking his life 3 or 4 times on an average day. Hmm, that sojourn to the spirit world should have set the Rogue sailing right IC, too.
Pissing off the cleric is never smart but when you're playing a character with a d6 and a low con and 2 poor saves its d-u-m-b stupid as hell. Rule 0: Don't piss off the DM. Rule -1: Don't piss off the healer.
As you level up you'll become a pretty good sleuth, don't fret. And his Bluff can only be as good as your Sense Motive and I'm pretty sure the Rogue should take penalties on the Bluff check.
"Are you skimming off the top?"
"Heavens to betsy no! I bought 10 times my reccomended wealth allotment on magical pimp gear in shop with money I earned doing spare jobs."
Right. Take the -5, Fast Fingers Fred!

From what I understand the rogue died at first level. He was new to the game and didn't understand that first level characters are fragile.

He charged into a fight to save someone and tried to go toe to toe with a fighter with a great sword.

The player is basing his character on one from a book he has read he loves to read fantasy fiction and he has the making of a good role player he tries to stay in character and the character is a thief who has always had to steal to live.

The character does not know any other way. So on one hand my roomie does not want to stop him from role playing and making decisions based on role playing but there is also metagaming issues here and that is that his stealing is having a real game effect on her character's powerlevel.

Which is why I thought the DM should have come up with a good in game reason to stop him like getting caught. I also thought the DM could point out that these people went out on a limb to bring him back they borrowed money to get him raised so maybe that could temper his desire to steal from the only people who have ever showed him kindness.

The player is only 18 playing with a bunch of people in their 40s who have been playing longer than he has been alive and they enjoy playing with him except that this stealing of items has gotten out of hand.