Clumsiness of ability scores

[Crothian]

Well, the thread started out interesting but it seems there are enough house rules that would have to be introduced to make the this happen that it becomes the "clumsy" way.

Another problem will be character creation.

 

[S'mon]

What I'm trying to say is that there is no reason to have ability scores anymore. It's a useless sacred cow.

*shhh*

 

[Kae'Yoss]

The mental calculation isn't really that hard. After some time, you just know the scores and resulting bonuses, you don't have to calculate it.

Getting rid of the scores would create several complications, as the scores are used for some things:

Ability damage and the like affects scores, not the modifier, and often goes down by odd numbers. So sometimes you're lucky and the drain won't affect you.

Con is used for several endurance-based actions, like holding your breath (and is used in a lot of house rules/ alternate d20 rules: Threshold for massive damage, Death threshold, wound points......)

Str is used for carrying capacity

Odd numbers are used for feats


Also, as has been stated, it would look dumb to have "Str -4" How's that supposed to work? I can't not only carry my own weight, I'm so weak that I drag others down with me? Int -1 sounds like a negative IQ, or like a pupil so stupid that 3 other pupils will fail the tests from the stuff he doesn't know.
And the threshold of -5 would look arbitrary. Why is it -5? Can I somehow get an ability that lets me work even with -6?


So, if they intend to take them away, they'd have to put a whole lot of thought into the whole affair, changing a lot, and I don't think it's worth all the effort (better change some of the more pressing problems)

 

[Laslo Tremaine]

I completely agree with those advocating ditching the 3-18 stat range and just going with the raw modifier.

Then all we have to do is change from a d20 to a d10 and we'll all be playing Ars Magica!

Seriously, I think both of those changes would be a good thing. The d10 because I think d20 creates too large of a spread and is just a bit too random.

 

[Ourph]

It's difficult to generate scores of -4 to +4 at chargen using a dice-rolling system that simulates a bell curve. If 4th ed goes to a standard point buy system instead of dice rolling for ability generation, then using ability modifiers only would be more feasible.

 

[jmucchiello]

Me: "OH, I mean an 18. I always get that mixed up because 18 has no actual meaning. Four is the meaningful stat."

Me: Try to cast a 9th level spell with just an 18 Int and see how meaningful it really is. 18 is an ability score. +4 is an ability modifier. They have separate purpose.

 

[ARandomGod]

I totally agree that it would probably make the game more efficient...but I would REALLY miss the ability scores. One of the things that always screamed d&d to me was having ability scores in the 3 - 18 (generally) range. It wouldent feel like d&d to me without them.

Cheers,

Well, I shall point out your main problem... It already isn't D&D. It's not even close, really. Anyone who's followed the game from the beginning can confirm that the current incarnation of the game, while it has bought the D&D name, bears only passing resemblance to the original game. And, in fact, a number of other systems are much closer. D&D has graduated into a description of game type than a system, the system is dead. If you want to get closest check out HackMaster.

It's difficult to generate scores of -4 to +4 at chargen using a dice-rolling system that simulates a bell curve. If 4th ed goes to a standard point buy system instead of dice rolling for ability generation, then using ability modifiers only would be more feasible.

THIS I can get behind totally. As long as you're rolling for stats the 3-18 stat block does a pretty good bell curve. On the other hand the game has moved somewhat away from that method of character generation, from what I've seen. This isn't a move that I approve of, especially the current "official" point buy system that discourages heroic stats in a game that is supposed to be about hero's. I admit that I've pretty much assumed at least some form of point buy. Although it would be easy enough to randomly generate the 3-18, give some sort of bounus for each odd stat score, and then drop the scores to the lowest even score.

Sure it's not "Hard" to remember what score is what modifer, but the scores being there are themselves a distraction, especially in a system that's already varied so much from the original, I don't see any real reason to keep those numbers other than conservatism and sentiment. Because, while it's not hard to convert 3 through 18 to -4 though +4, it's even easier to do it to feat req's than to do it on the character sheet.

 

[ARandomGod]

Me: Try to cast a 9th level spell with just an 18 Int and see how meaningful it really is. 18 is an ability score. +4 is an ability modifier. They have separate purpose.

We're talking about changing the system, it's one OR the other, not both.
All that means is that you can cast a ninth level spell with a +4 modifier. Which you should have known already.

(OK, good point, the spell system as well as feats would need some simple adjustment.)

(But it's easily modified, and with better results in my opinion. It's a very simple conversion. Anyplace there is an odd ability score requirement, drop that score by one point, take the modifier granted by that stat, that is the new requirement.)

 

[Trainz]

We're talking about changing the system, it's one OR the other, not both.
All that means is that you can cast a ninth level spell with a +4 modifier. Which you should have known already.

(OK, good point, the spell system as well as feats would need some simple adjustment.)

(But it's easily modified, and with better results in my opinion. It's a very simple conversion. Anyplace there is an odd ability score requirement, drop that score by one point, take the modifier granted by that stat, that is the new requirement.)

Absolutely. I was a bit miffed when I saw people nitpicking on very specific things when I was adressing the general phenomenon. It's a no brainer to drop a Stat req from 13 to +1 or allow a stat of +4 or +5 to cast 9th level spells.

I am not saying whe should do it. Not at all. I said that when WotC decided to go with only stat bonuses, almost negating the relevance of base stats (unlike previous editions where when you did a Str check, you had to roll equal or under the actual Str score), well they missed the mark.

You implement something or you don't. I hate when people do things half-way.

But then, as I said, that would have been a chunk too big to swallow for many a gamer.

 

[Tonguez]

For my homebrew Faction/Domain Management system I have chargen using a 4 point-buy (ie can have +1 in four stats, +0 for the other 2)