CMD too low?

[Tovec]

DanMcS pretty much summed up what I was saying Jeff.
However can you please run the numbers on the level 5 with 18 dex for me?

If it works out the odds are a little better (as I expect they would be) then great, if they're somehow the same or worse then I might concede that point.

Mostly I don't think two classes should be able to run away, in a unique way from any creature with all kinds of benefits for doing so when all the rest of the classes against that same creature can't. Now I'm not suggesting that these classes don't fill a role nor am I saying that it isn't cool being able to do it. I think its silly that a Monk (in 3.5 or PF) can tumble away from someone so easily when a fighter who is just as highly trained gets whacked because the fighter has more HP to get whacked with. I have found very little real world application of why tumbling was created the way it was in the first place but I don't mind it. I did think 3.5 made it FAR too easy and PF made it harder. I also know that the few characters I have seen who are still capable of tumbling do so quite effectively.

So please, once again, run the numbers on a level 5 with 18 dex in the same way you did a level 2 with 17. I somehow think those extra 4 points will matter when at best a fighter who is scaling the same amount will get 3. That isn't including the bonuses such as feats, skill-bonus abilities and items you can get to bump a SKILL role when a fighter can bump their CMD by .... um... getting a new level and increasing their physicals?

 

[Mojo_Rat]

sorry forgot to add the monk I was talking about was 20 pt buy 14 14 14 101410. after race and gear 18 18 14 10 16 10. I feel ALOT if the negative views of monks are un warranted.

 

[Jeff Wilder]

However can you please run the numbers on the level 5 with 18 dex for me?

Sure. That gives the rogue a +12.

Fighter 6, Str 16, Dex 14 (it would be fair if the fighter gained a stat bump, too, but let's ignore that), so a CMD of 21.

To tumble at full speed away from this fighter, I have to roll a natural 19 or 20.

And this ignores any magic items that apply to CMD, such as a ring of protection +1 and it ignores any CMD-boosting feats the feat-rich fighter may have (which includes things like Dodge, BTW). It also ignores any Acrobatics-boosts I might have, but those are significantly less likely.

It also assume "level-appropriate" to be "CR equal to level," while in practice it would be quite reasonable if that fighter were 8th level ... and I would have literally no chance of tumbling away.

Note, BTW, that we're not talking about an offensive maneuver like disarming or tripping; I have no problem accepting that I should have very little chance of succeeding at those. But giving a rogue almost no chance to succeed at a very roguish, primarily defensive, ability, against a level-appropriate enemy, was a mistake.

A 10 percent chance to succeed (at best) at this is simply too low. All I'm arguing for is that the modifier should be +5, which translates to a 35 percent chance (at best).

 

[Tovec]

A. They now have a higher chance of tumbling away at FULL SPEED. They now do it on a 19 or 20 instead of just 20 in only 3 levels.

B. That doesn't mean they can't try and move full speed, it means that they should roll to go half speed most of the time. Unless of course tumbling from a wizard or a mook.

C. Ring of Protection and Dodge eh?
Ring of Protection:
This ring offers continual magical protection in the form of a
deflection bonus of +1 to +5 to AC.

Dodge:
You gain a +1 dodge bonus to your AC. A
condition that makes you lose your Dex bonus to AC also
makes you lose the benefits of this feat.

I must have missed where these give bonuses to CMD. Unno like in the monk's AC Bonus (Ex):
When unarmored and unencumbered,
the monk adds his Wisdom bonus (if any) to his AC and his
CMD. In addition, a monk gains a +1 bonus to AC and CMD
at 4th level. This bonus increases by 1 for every four monk
levels thereafter, up to a maximum of +5 at 20th level.

Monk's AC bonus also works nearly all the time (few exceptions) where the dodge bonus and ring don't. Which after all is the point of this thread.

 

[Jadeite]

A creature can also add any circumstance, deflection, dodge, insight, luck, morale, profane, and sacred bonuses to AC to its CMD.

It's mentioned in the monk entry because the monk's bonus to AC is untyped.

 

[Tovec]

A creature can also add any circumstance, deflection, dodge, insight, luck, morale, profane, and sacred bonuses to AC to its CMD.

It's mentioned in the monk entry because the monk's bonus to AC is untyped.

Cool, where is that quote from? That dramatically changes my view on this subject.

EDIT:
Found it, what do you know.

Combat Maneuver Defense
CMD = 10 + BAB + STR + DEX + SIZE + MISC
Miscellaneous
A creature can also add any circumstance, deflection, dodge, insight, luck, morale, profane, and sacred bonuses to AC to its CMD.

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

CMD section, oddly enough.

 

[Tovec]

So I've reread the CMD section as well as this entire thread Jeff and I now understand your point more fully. Yes it does seem to scale really well from level to level. I know there are still a lot of reasonably cheap magic items that would level the playing field at higher levels but I do truly understand your point.

I don't agree with it but I understand it. I think my comments before about being able to run away from lower level enemies seems fine and should be easier, running away from higher or same level ones should be decent to hard depending on class and level.
Yes it is part of the rogue or monk mechanic but it was too easy in 3.5 to do at higher levels making it a godly power if you had tumble. It is now slightly harder but more classes are capable of doing it with the change to class skills getting +3. I'm okay with its current level as it is. If I find out later that it gets overpowered or underpowered then I am more than willing on changing or houseruling something at that point.
I still think monks are quite powerful in PF due to increased BAB and combination of effects into Combat Maneuvers. I'm glad it was finally pointed out that everyone else gets a lot of other options to CMD. Wouldn't this still mean a monk is advantaged - in being able to get those same spells cast upon them or being able to pick up the same items the fighter gets? Plus being able to add their WIS to CMD when a fighter can't, but I digress.

 

[Kaisoku]

Not putting any ranks and having no Dex bonus = Not good at tumbling at all.

Putting ranks into Acrobatics and having a decent Dex bonus = Good at acrobatics in general.

Full ranks, high Dex, Skill Focus (Acrobatics) = Focused on Acrobatics.

Full ranks, pumped Dex, Skill Focus (Acrobatics), Acrobatic, Boots of Elvenkind, and Elixir of Tumbling (different circumstance, so it would likely stack) = Ridiculously (unnecessarily) focused on Acrobatics.


A person has a lot of options when it comes to how "level appropriate" they are.

Boots of Elvenkind are fairly common around 5th level (current Kingmaker game, the rogue just picked these up). Skill focus is nothing to laugh at, due to the doubled bonus at 10 ranks.

Currently, our party Rogue (at 5th level) has 20 Dex (16 pb, +2 racial, +2 magic item), 5 ranks in the skill, and Boots of Elvenkind.
If he were not bow focused, and more concerned about moving through dangerous spaces, he'd have Skill Focus as well.

That's a +21 modifier. Looking a the "monsters by CR", the average CMD at CR 5 is 23 (if we round up). That's a 90% success chance for fairly minor focus in "not getting hit while moving" (one feat and one magic item). If you want to do that at full speed, it's about 40% chance (against level appropriate).
The guy with an elixir of tumbling and the extra +2 feat would have no chance of failure, even at full speed.. which makes sense for focusing so much, and using a limited resource (potion).

Now, I have a fundamental thematic objection to using CMD, as you aren't really "attacking" but "avoiding" with a tumble. So if we need to have an opposed check at all (I still think tumbling difficulty should be about leaving yourself open, not opponent's skill), then I'd rather it was based on CMB, or maybe BAB + Dex alone, emulating the Bluff-as-feint concept.

--

Regarding the OP.

There are a number of limitations in place regarding combat maneuvers already. So if someone wants to pump resources (feats, etc) into being good at one of them, it's a good idea that it'll come into play fairly often.

Note that most combat maneuvers aren't death sentences. A grapple takes a while to get into a position where you can permanently remove someone from combat (it takes rounds to get to pinning with a rope situation), and while he's doing it, the grappler is kind of out of combat too (and more vulnerable).
Tripping isn't the be-all end-all, as there's a number of methods of removing the problems of being prone (no trip locking! you can't trip someone as they stand up, the AoO will have to be for something other than tripping).

As for actually bringing up the CMD number:

There's the Defensive Combat Training feat for those who aren't full BAB classes, and the Dodge feat grants a +1 Dodge bonus to AC, so also CMD. The mobility feat grants a +4 dodge bonus to AC when provoking an AoO for moving, so if you move out of threatened space and that giant wants to grapple or trip you, you have an additional +4 to you CMD against that.

The APG has Boneless Leather, a special magical armor that (among a laundry list of bonuses), grants +5 to your CMD.
There's also the teamwork feat Coordinated Defense, which gives a +2 bonus to CMD if next to your ally who has this feat (cavaliers and inquisitors having greater advantage of this). Oh, and it's +4 if the enemy is larger.
Rangers can get a feat for a bonus to CMD against favored enemies (and have a spell to treat a target as a favored enemy, so nice combo there).

There's also an innumerable amount of racial and class features (especially with archetypes and racial traits swapping) that give bonuses to specific CMD checks.
I haven't even checked spells, but off the top of my head, Protection from Evil grants a +2 deflection bonus that would count.

It's not as straight forward as AC, but there's a lot of support for the Combat Maneuver mechanics. I think this is why, when all things are considered and stacked up, it's not such a problem in game.
And even with all these ways of boosting CMD, the guy who focused on Tripping can still get his chance to shine. As it should be.

 

[sheadunne]

You don't have to tumble for the entire movement, just the first five feet to get away from the attacker. So it would only cost you 10 feet of movement to get away from your opponent. After that you can just use your regular movement. The +10 to tumble at full speed is only useful if you're tumbling past a great number of opponents. Against just one, there's never a need to do it, unless the creature has reach.