D&D 5E (2024) CoDzilla? Yeah Na Its CoDGFaW.

[EzekielRaiden]

Fighters were very powerful in AD&D at levels that mattered.

Espicially with official material used.

2E had the most powerful fighter ever depending on dpkat books but even fighters handbook or core was very good.

Can they cast wish?

 

[Zardnaar]

Can they cast wish?

Nope game didnt go that high most of the time. If ever (we made it once munchkin game). Might take 5 years to get there. 2E you leveled really slow.

Wish aged you 5 years and you had to make a system shock roll or die immediately. If you were raised you lost a point of constitution permanently which made it more likely to die.

Fighter could cast wish in some situations.

 

[EzekielRaiden]

Nope game didnt go that high most of the time.

I'm sorry, but...I don't care.

I don't care when the game ends.

If ever (we made it once munchkin game). Might take 5 years to get there. 2E you leveled really slow.

Wish aged you 5 years and you had to make a system shock roll or die immediately. If you were raised you lost a point of constitution permanently which made it more likely to die.

Aaaaaand honestly I don't care. Like seriously. I do not care.

You can REWRITE REALITY.

Anything else is choosing to succeed less. And wish is hardly the only example. I've played Labyrinth Lord. I've seen what a...I think he was level 8 or 9? He could cast invisibility, I remember that much. He wasn't trying to ride roughshod on the campaign. It's just that a Wizard played by a smart player, who has managed to survive the first 2-3 levels, is really stinkin POWERFUL up until they run out of spell slots, and then they have to hide or throw darts or whatever. (Which, again, not great game design there, getting 4 moments of EPIC AWESOME and then 4 hours of incredibly dull monotony....)

Fighter could cast wish in some situations.

What kind of situations?

Because if they're "using a magic item that only a spellcaster could create", then they aren't casting wish. They're using some kind of fancy spell scroll, or something equivalent to one, to finish a wish cast by some other spellcaster.

 

[Bluenose]

Which is precisely the balance problem D&D has been struggling with for...um...how long has D&D existed again, minus the years of The Edition That Must Not Be Named?

People keep talking about how the balance concerns are overblown etc. etc. etc., and yet I'm hearing exactly the same things I've been hearing since, like, 2002-ish. Specific types of Wizards are awesome, and require careful play but good play rewards you much, much more than any other class. Clerics and Druids, when competently played and using the spells as written, run rings around anyone else (in this case, almost literally). Fighters can only barely keep up, and that only by being giant meatsticks with little to no utility value beyond "HULK SMASH!!!"

Like, how are we not exactly where we've been for the past 25 freaking years, minus the few years where 4e actually did something different for once?

See PF 2e. Balance issues or at least complaints there include the Wizard being seriously underpowered. Cue more than a few people deciding that simulationism and masses of options and lack of balance were only factors as long as the class they liked was high on the power-curve.

 

[TerraDave]

I think the issue that started this thread is just a handful of spells, which are known to be potentially game breaking. Not really the classes.

So, you could also have a thread on how strong 5.5 fighters and monks are. And more people who have actually played 5.5 would probably post in it, and agree.

No one says the 5.5 wizard is too strong. I think its fine, but we have had threads on it being too weak.

 

[Zardnaar]

I'm sorry, but...I don't care.

I don't care when the game ends.


Aaaaaand honestly I don't care. Like seriously. I do not care.

You can REWRITE REALITY.

Anything else is choosing to succeed less. And wish is hardly the only example. I've played Labyrinth Lord. I've seen what a...I think he was level 8 or 9? He could cast invisibility, I remember that much. He wasn't trying to ride roughshod on the campaign. It's just that a Wizard played by a smart player, who has managed to survive the first 2-3 levels, is really stinkin POWERFUL up until they run out of spell slots, and then they have to hide or throw darts or whatever. (Which, again, not great game design there, getting 4 moments of EPIC AWESOME and then 4 hours of incredibly dull monotony....)


What kind of situations?

Because if they're "using a magic item that only a spellcaster could create", then they aren't casting wish. They're using some kind of fancy spell scroll, or something equivalent to one, to finish a wish cast by some other spellcaster.

Various weapons had wish soells in them. Wizards coukd create them (losing a con point permanently)

You couldn't scam that stuff bit AD&D were loaded up with lavish amounts of loot.

Wizards generally didnt dominate combat. Tgey had to few hp in AD&D, capped hit points from con modifier and if the game did go to high level fighters were still useful to have around. Magic resistance could be 90%, resolving spells was horrible. 3E removed a lot of restrictions.

I suspect most games then also ended by 7-10 so you never saw high level Wizards except as NPC antagonists.

In 5.5 themes rares started dropping lvl 3, very rare and legendaries dropped lvl 5-7 and you got lots of them. A sword you found level 5 could still be used 10 levels later (unlikely the gane ran that long but still).

I saw a 2E fighter solo a dragon, lich, marilith one after the other 1 round each.

Fighters had best saves, best initiative in effect (if you used the advanced rules we did), and magic armor boosted some saves.

And the game flowed a lot faster and easier to run than 3E-5E. 2E was also the best tool box D&D.

 

[Silam]

I saw a 2E fighter solo a dragon, lich, marilith one after the other 1 round each.

I don’t have a side in this debate, but I am curious to hear about that

How the hell did the Fighter (or any character really) one-time all three of these monsters ? Vorpal and nat 20s …?

 

[Zardnaar]

I don’t have a side in this debate, but I am curious to hear about that

How the hell did the Fighter (or any character really) one-time all three of these monsters ? Vorpal and nat 20s …?

Dual wielding longsword. Weapon specialization, strength boosting item and a haste effect.

Swords were a frostbrand and basic +4 or 5 weapon. 6-8 attacks round iirc. Frostbrand vs dragon is +6. Cant remember what the other sword was it was weaker than frostbrand. AC 27 (-7) iirc.

 

[Voadam]

Dual wielding longsword. Weapon specialization, strength boosting item and a haste effect.

Swords were a frostbrand and basic +4 or 5 weapon. 6-8 attacks round iirc. Frostbrand vs dragon is +6. Cant remember what the other sword was it was weaker than frostbrand. AC 27 (-7) iirc.

This is pretty optimal for the fighter.

So 2e with two weapon style specialization from Complete Fighter to be able to dual wield two longswords. 1e the offhand weapon has to be a dagger or hand axe. There was a 1e Dragon article expanding these to a few more small weapon options in the offhand but not two longswords. 2e at base the second weapon has to be smaller and lighter unless you use the optional two-weapon style specialization.

1e dragons and mariliths have a lot fewer hp than 2e ones (red dragons have 9-11 HD in 1e versus 13 HD base in 2e (at juvenile with -6 to +8 HD variance depending on age category) and 7+7 HD for the 1e marilith compared with 12 HD for the 2e one). But once you have the giant strength and haste and two really good magic weapons going it doesn't really matter.

At 7th level and above with specialization you could get 2 attacks a round with a longsword, dual wielding could give an extra one in 2e for three base. Haste (aging a year and requiring a system shock roll to survive each time hasted) doubles that to six attacks a round.

Damage would be d12 (for the bigguns) or d8 (for the medium sized lich) +2 specialization, +7-whatever for giant strength, + 4-6 magical bonus. So say a low end 20 hp a hit average, 120 hp of damage a round if all six hit. One round killing even most 20 HD monsters (average of 90 hp).

The lich could probably survive more than a round if they have 2e stoneskin, but they are probably cooked pretty quick once the fighter gets into melee.