D&D General Combat as War vs. Sport and a Missing Third Mode

[Aldarc]

Pro Wrestling has a big emphasis on promotion, social interaction, and linking combats into a full story. Combat as Pro Wrestling would be the same.

Again, I feel as you may be hyper-fixating on the "pro wrestling" aspect a little too literally. Likewise, I think that most people can agree that "pro wrestling" is a much more narrow, restricted category of kind than war, sport, and theater. I can't help but assume, perhaps to my error, that you are a fan of pro wrestling who feels that pro wrestling should be entitled to its own category of "Combat as..." due to intricacies and nuances of pro wrestling that you feel are wholly special unto pro wrestling, which I don't particularly care getting into the weeds about. But again, I think that you are missing the forest for the trees here.

 

[zakael19]

Given that I'm running uh, a lot of Daggerheart right now, this is an interesting viewpoint to think through for me. I literally just shifted a Draw Steel! game over to DH because that level of high-prep, rules and time heavy combat-as-sport/game just wasn't doing it for me.

I'll contrast my experience between the two:

• In DS!, you need to figure out an objective for the encounter as it pertains to the story. Kinda same thing for DH, a conflict should be informed by the narrative and inform it as well. This right here is a huge shift from CoW I think?
• In DS! I know the math is very well crafted to give the exact challenge the building rules suggest. Basically, based on the party's resources (Victories / Recoveries) and how I build the encounter, I should largely have an idea of exactly how tough this is going to be.
• In DH, I want to throw together an encounter that is just the right mix for the moment. Do I want to show a deadly lieutenant standing in their way? I better make sure that I use a Solo or Leader + minions or else it'll feel anti climactic. Do I want to ambush two of the party in the midst of the night and provide far more story threat then mechanical? I can do that too, using GM Moves + fiction.
• DS! has a distinct "we roll initiative" whereas DH does not. This one is probably a pretty huge difference and why DH is so far into "combat as theater/narrative."

 

[Minigiant]

Again, I feel as you may be hyper-fixating on the "pro wrestling" aspect a little too literally. Likewise, I think that most people can agree that "pro wrestling" is a much more narrow, restricted category of kind than war, sport, and theater. I can't help but assume, perhaps to my error, that you are a fan of pro wrestling who feels that pro wrestling should be entitled to its own category of "Combat as..." due to intricacies and nuances of pro wrestling that you feel are wholly special unto pro wrestling, which I don't particularly care getting into the weeds about. But again, I think that you are missing the forest for the trees here.

Im talking

Theater in 1 Combat Encounter
Vs
Theater in the Mutliple Encounters, time between them, and the time before them.


Maybe im mistaken, but I thought you were describing CaT where the goal is to make every Combat Theatrical.

So a Turn 1 OHKO or a blatantly onesie Combat would not match Combat as Theater. Correct?

 

[Umbran]

So a Turn 1 OHKO or a blatantly onesie Combat would not match Combat as Theater. Correct?

It could be - if the fact that it was a OHKO was a dramatic turn of events.

For example, if there had been previously massive hype about how this was goig to be the "Fight of the Century!", and it turns out to be an instant knockout that makes the entire audience gasp, that's theatrical.

 

[Minigiant]

It could be - if the fact that it was a OHKO was a dramatic turn of events.

For example, if there had been previously massive hype about how this was goig to be the "Fight of the Century!", and it turns out to be an instant knockout that makes the entire audience gasp, that's theatrical.

That sounds more like pro wrestling or boxing than theater.

Thats my point.

Getting the bottom of the dungeon by the skin of your teeth then the lich teleports the party back to the entrance and raising all the minions feels different from the style of theater i think is being spoken about.

 

[Umbran]

That sounds more like pro wrestling or boxing than theater.

Pro-wrestling, meaning WWE, is theater. It is scripted theater depicting a violent combat sport. Those people are athletes, but they aren't engaged in an athletic competition. They are stuntperson-actors, performing on a stage, and we kindly suspend our disbelief for the show.

Real sports and real war can be dramatic, but that is result of the chips falling where they may, and is not by design.

 

[Minigiant]

Pro-wrestling, meaning WWE, is theater. It is scripted theater depicting a violent combat sport. Those people are athletes, but they aren't engaged in an athletic competition. They are stuntperson-actors, performing on a stage, and we kindly suspend our disbelief for the show.

Real sports and real war can be dramatic, but that is result of the chips falling where they may, and is not by design.

Im not saying Pro Wrestling in WWE, NJPW, AEW, WCW or anything else isnt treater.

But the OPP says

"Where War asks, “How do we win (and survive) this through preparation, tactics, and asymmetry?” and Sport asks, “How do we win this fair encounter efficiently using our abilities?”, Theater asks, “How do we make this scene compelling while expressing character and drama?" (These questions may vary but are meant to be more illustrative of general ideas.)"

I say that Pro Wrestling focuses its theater to more than the one scene

There is the promo before, the entrances, the backstage skit, the after fight brawl, the media strum, the next fight, the next fight, the fight against minions, the interconnected exhibition match, the contract signing, the appeal to the commissioner, then the final big fight.

Less making the scene theatrical and more about every scene connected.

Its just as important to describe your Fireball and get it out as much as it is that the minions will have anti-fireball tech to reverse the situation later.

 

[Argyle King]

Im not saying Pro Wrestling in WWE, NJPW, AEW, WCW or anything else isnt treater.

But the OPP says

"Where War asks, “How do we win (and survive) this through preparation, tactics, and asymmetry?” and Sport asks, “How do we win this fair encounter efficiently using our abilities?”, Theater asks, “How do we make this scene compelling while expressing character and drama?" (These questions may vary but are meant to be more illustrative of general ideas.)"

I say that Pro Wrestling focuses its theater to more than the one scene

There is the promo before, the entrances, the backstage skit, the after fight brawl, the media strum, the next fight, the next fight, the fight against minions, the interconnected exhibition match, the contract signing, the appeal to the commissioner, then the final big fight.

Less making the scene theatrical and more about every scene connected.

Its just as important to describe your Fireball and get it out as much as it is that the minions will have anti-fireball tech to reverse the situation later.

Some good points here.

I think the promos, entrances, and etc are more about campaign and encounter structure than Combat as Sport or Combat as War.

You can do the same thing in a ttrpg by having challenges and encounters that are not strictly limited to the battlefield. Perhaps there's an opportunity to give a rousing speech before an upcoming conflict; doing a good job may mean swaying some NPC warriors to your side or a morale bonus for the battle.

Though, I think for those things to be meaningful, the mechanical structure of your chosen ttrpg needs to allow for those other modes of play to matter in a tangible way. How is the player rewarded for putting character resources into charisma to interact with the game world rather than putting character resources into being better at combat?

When it is done well, pro wrestling is a great illustration of how I believe fantasy should be: yes, it includes unreal and fantastical things, but there is still some baseline level of plausibility and verisimilitude from which suspension of beliefs and a variety of conflict types can be built. For example, the Undertaker being an undead wrestler is a fantasy concept, but his matches still have a referee and the rules (no matter how flexible they may be at times) of the match still matter.

I don't believe that Combat as War need to be at odds with Combat as Theatre. You can have narrative scenes for theatre, but still have the approach to them be (for a lack of better words) gritty. Pro Wrestling examples of that would be 80s NWA, 90s ECW, and some of WWE's Attitude Era.

 

[Umbran]

Im not saying Pro Wrestling in WWE, NJPW, AEW, WCW or anything else isnt treater.

But the OPP says

"Where War asks, “How do we win (and survive) this through preparation, tactics, and asymmetry?” and Sport asks, “How do we win this fair encounter efficiently using our abilities?”, Theater asks, “How do we make this scene compelling while expressing character and drama?" (These questions may vary but are meant to be more illustrative of general ideas.)"

I say that Pro Wrestling focuses its theater to more than the one scene

Yes, Pro Wrestling has kayfabe - the fiction isn't limited to the combat. But for the combat scene, they are asking how to make it compelling character and drama. The combat is Combat as Theatre.

This aligns with our games - because our games aren't limited to combat. We want our combat to pair up well with how we are running the rest of the game. So, you choose War, Sport, or Theater to match your combat with your overall goals.

 

[Lanefan]

• Combat as War:
  • Challenge: Brutal Combat Encounters where NPCs, monsters, and obstacles have heavy advantage
  • Fail State: Entering combat before shifting the favor to the players side
• Combat as Sport:
  • Challenge: Balanced Combat Encounters designed to threaten survival
  • Fail State: Not adjusting tactics to match the combats puzzle
• Combat as Theater
  • Challenge: Creative Combat Encounters that have exciting stories
  • Fail State: A combat that is boring or anticlimactic
• Combat as Pro Wrestling
  • Challenge: Linked Combat Encounters that build of each other and the noncombat inbetween and highlights the Characters within
  • Fail State: A combat without a proper build, lead in, nor payoff

There's a third factor to these:

CaW - DM is completely neutral and impartial as to whether the players win or lose
CaS - DM has a thumb on the scale to make sure the players win, but only uses that thumb if necessary
CaT - DM has a thumb on the scale to make sure the combat is entertaining (and the players win), and uses that thumb often
CaPW - there is no scale, the outcome - as with pro wrestling - is pre-scripted by the DM