Combat casting - nearly useless in 3.5?

[Shallown]

Thanee

"Really? Isn't that a bit much, DC-wise?"

I assume this was for me.

Not really once I looked at the BAB's for monsters/classes and such and realized it doesn't make that big a difference since a lot of the real high to hits come from strength . Most monsters have a clerics bab so a maxed concentration is usually still higher. I think Caster's take there chances in combat if they are being threatened. To be honest it hurts the heck out of my bad guys when spell like abilities and such come into play. The only person it hurt was the Bladsinger who had to up his concentration so his take 10 wasn't a guaruntee like it was. He got a 6 ranks in Concentration then never bothered to up it anymore. Most casters, in my games, did the same thing. It became a toss away skill after 10th level. I thought it should be vital all the way through. I know I am forcing the players to spend that point every level but since I give all classes two extar points I don't feel to bad. I run a skill intensive campaign and I want things to revolve around skill use as well as a lot of other things. I think in most typical games following the rules as written that skills become fairly unimportant after 10th level. I didn't want that.

Sorry to get off track but I think my house rule needs to be judged in light of how I run style wise and what other house rules I use. (Not many I admit)

later

 

[tauton_ikhnos]

Heh. There be a metamagicking sorcerers who is going to start kicking ass in my campaign.

 

[Joshua Randall]

Here is the chance of successfully casting on the defensive at your highest spell level (assuming a Cleric or Wizard with Constitution 10 and max ranks in Concentration):

[font=Courier New]spell	  char.[/font]
[font=Courier New]level  DC  level  ranks  success   w/ CC[/font]
[font=Courier New]  0	15   1	  4	  50%	  70%
  1	16   1	  4	  45%	  65%
  2	17   3	  6	  50%	  70%
  3	18   5	  8	  55% 	 75%
  4	19   7	 10	  60%	  80%
  5	20   9	 12	  65%	  85%
  6	21   11	 14	  70%	  90%
  7	22   13	 16	  75%	  95%
  8	23   15	 18	  80%	 100%
  9	24   17	 20	  85%	 105%[/font]

Personally, I consider any success chance less than 75% to be unacceptably low. Fortunately, Combat Casting adds a flat +20% to your success chance: meaning that as early as 5th level (3rd level spells) you attain an acceptably high success chance.

Keep in mind that Combat Casting also helps with spellcasting while being grappled or pinned. That check is at DC 20 + spell level.

[font=Courier New]spell	  char.[/font]
[font=Courier New]level  DC  level  ranks  success   w/ CC[/font]
[font=Courier New]  0	20   1	  4	  25%	  45%
  1	21   1	  4	  20%	  40%
  2	22   3	  6	  25%	  45%
  3	23   5	  8	  30% 	 50%
  4	24   7	 10	  35%	  55%
  5	25   9	 12	  40%	  60%
  6	26   11	 14	  45%	  65%
  7	27   13	 16	  50%	  70%
  8	28   15	 18	  55%	  75%
  9	29   17	 20	  60%	  80%[/font]
[font=Courier New]

[/font]

Your success rate with Combat Casting to cast during a grapple is almost always going to be significantly better than your ability to break the grapple.

All this said: I would still generally rather have Skill Focus (Concentration), because the loss of 5% success rate is more than made up for by being able to use your Concentration +3 when entangled, being dealt damage, in violent weather, etc.

 

[DarkMaster]

Its only useful if you House rule the DC's for Casting on defence. I do DC is 15+spell level + BAB of whoever threatens you. It makes a difference now my characters even at 14th level put points into concentrate.

later

I would not because even maxout I would miss all of them would rather put my point skill elsewhere

 

[DaveMage]

I don't see metamagic in play even knowing it is a full round action and not 1 round. Metamagic on the whole sucks butt, there are 1 or two decent feats the rest just suck, especially in 3.5. In 3e with stacking metamagic and spells that were worth metamagicing it was at least used, now it just got phased out as people were using it and they realized it just sucked.

My sorcerer likes empowered fireball...

The only ones I can see using with regularity would be empower spell or widen spell.

Maximize is too costly and the others I just wouldn't use often enough to justify wasting a precious feat slot on.

 

[Elder-Basilisk]

Thanee

"Really? Isn't that a bit much, DC-wise?"

I assume this was for me.

Not really once I looked at the BAB's for monsters/classes and such and realized it doesn't make that big a difference since a lot of the real high to hits come from strength . Most monsters have a clerics bab so a maxed concentration is usually still higher.

You do realize that, with your rule, all you get for maxing out concentration is, at best a 50% chance to successfully cast spells while threatened. That's not much for a maxed skill.

Out of curiousity, do you add BAB to the DC for casting a spell while grappled too? That would make it practically impossible. However, not doing so means that, by mid-levels, it's generally easier to cast dimension door while grappled than while threatened.

I think Caster's take there chances in combat if they are being threatened. To be honest it hurts the heck out of my bad guys when spell like abilities and such come into play. The only person it hurt was the Bladsinger who had to up his concentration so his take 10 wasn't a guaruntee like it was. He got a 6 ranks in Concentration then never bothered to up it anymore. Most casters, in my games, did the same thing. It became a toss away skill after 10th level.

That's really odd. I play a 13th level fighter/wizard in Living Greyhawk and I still keep Concentration maxed. If effects damage me during spellcasting, I need all those ranks too.

I thought it should be vital all the way through. I know I am forcing the players to spend that point every level but since I give all classes two extar points I don't feel to bad.

Curious. With the extra skill points, you're not really punishing players skill wise but, with that house rule, I wouldn't touch Concentration with a ten-foot pole since, even if I maxed it, I wouldn't get much of anything out of it.

I run a skill intensive campaign and I want things to revolve around skill use as well as a lot of other things. I think in most typical games following the rules as written that skills become fairly unimportant after 10th level. I didn't want that.

Sorry to get off track but I think my house rule needs to be judged in light of how I run style wise and what other house rules I use. (Not many I admit)

That's fair enough. However, I do wonder whether this house rule really makes the skill more important or less important.

As for the feats, I've known a competent player take both for his high-level dwarf cleric. As a non-human character with an 8 int, he can't afford to both max out concentration and have any other skills. So, he uses feats to make up for spending some of his skill points elsewhere.

 

[Ahnehnois]

I don't see that either feat is all that useful for most people. The only reason you generally need to roll Concentration at all is if you were flanked or if someone readied an attack against you. If your sorcerer or wizard is flanked by enemies actually worth worrying about, either your melee people are lazy/nonexistent, or you are in a really unusually tough battle.

For melee people who cast a lot of spells it would be more worth it, but even then at high levels with a good con mod you're not going to fail the check. Either Skill Focus or Combat Casting gets way less useful as you level up. Not quite like Toughness, but still, if you take it, you might really hurt yourself later on. As a wizard you can afford it, but most sorcerers simply don't have feats to be throwing around like that when Spell Focus, Metamagic Feats, and Spell Penetration are all likely to come into play more often and you have no bonus feats. Clerics often cast in melee, but they have no bonus feats and have to cover a lot.

Of course, houserules can change the equation considerably. If you do go for one, Concentration is more than just casting defensively, so yes, 3.5 really makes Combat Casting a weak choice.

 

[wolfen]

I don't see that either feat is all that useful for most people. The only reason you generally need to roll Concentration at all is if you were flanked or if someone readied an attack against you. If your sorcerer or wizard is flanked by enemies actually worth worrying about, either your melee people are lazy/nonexistent, or you are in a really unusually tough battle.

You covered quite a bit of ground in your post, but I did want to address this idea. This does not address a wide range of potential situations which can be summed up by the word "surprise." A stealthy monk or rogue can give a wizard a lot to think about all of a sudden. Now, whether or not it's an unusually tough battle depends on a lot of things, but most of my campaigns have a lot of challenging battles.