Combat Expertise and the Duelist's Elaborate Parry?

[Enforcer]

Alright, so we all know that Combat Expertise lets you trade BAB for AC, up to -5/+5 if you've got a high enough BAB.

Normally, fighting defensively gives you a -4 to hit and a +2 to AC. This is specifically noted as stacking with Combat Expertise (see p. 140). Total defense gives a +4 dodge bonus to AC and obviously can't stack with Combat Expertise because that feat assumes an attack. Clearly having Combat Expertise gives you a pretty decent advantage on defense--total defense is a worthless option if your character has a BAB of 4+, and fighting defensively is worthless once you have a BAB of 2+ unless you really really need that extra +2 to AC.

Okay, I'm good up to here. The Duelist PrC, however, raises an interesting question with the Elaborate Parry ability. Now, I don't have the 3.5 DMG, so I'm going from the 3.5 SRD here. Elaborate Parry (at Duelist level 7) gives an additional +1 dodge bonus per Duelist level (so starting at +7) "if a duelist chooses to fight defensively or use total defense in melee combat..."

Right, so my question is, can the Elaborate Parry ability be used with Combat Expertise instead of the inferior fighting defensively and total defense options? So, if my Rog 3/Ftr 4/Duelist 7 has Combat Expertise, can I choose to take a -1 to hit and get a +8 to my AC? Or, must I take a -4 to hit and get a +9 to my AC?

Has this been addressed? If not, what do the various EN World rules gurus think?

 

[Darklone]

It's easy. You can use fighting defensively as well as C-expertise and Elaborate Parry.

 

[Enforcer]

It's easy. You can use fighting defensively as well as C-expertise and Elaborate Parry.

Yes, but why would you want to fight defensively at all once you have Combat Expertise--which is why I want to know if you can just use Combat Expertise with Elaborate Parry.

Check out my example above...-1/+8 (or -2/+9) with just Combat Expertise and Elaborate Parry vs. -4/+9 with just fighting defensively and Elaborate Parry. Obviously combining Combat Expertise with fighting defensively and Elaborate Parry yields the highest AC bonus when pushed to the limit (-9 to hit/+14 to AC), but it's just not very efficient compared to Combat Expertise and Elaborate Parry without fighting defensively. It'd be better to just max out the Combat Expertise alone and get a -5 to hit and a +12 to AC in most cases.

 

[Darklone]

I assume Elaborate Parry is "balanced" that way. If you could use it with C-Expertise alone, you'd be too good ... that's what you showed. -1 to hit for +8 minimum AC... touch AC as well... too strong.

 

[Enforcer]

I assume Elaborate Parry is "balanced" that way. If you could use it with C-Expertise alone, you'd be too good ... that's what you showed. -1 to hit for +8 minimum AC... touch AC as well... too strong.

This is what I'm assuming as well...but it's always nice to get the opinions of others. The thing that kind of annoys me though is that Combat Expertise is such a great feat for a Duelist character, especially for all the levels when they don't have Elaborate Parry. It's also great for Improved Disarm, a very good feat both stylistically and mechanically for Duelists. If Elaborate Parry cannot be combined with Combat Expertise alone, Combat Expertise only has utility in the -1/+1 to -3/+3 range instead of up to -5/+5. Not really a big deal, and I've probably spent way too much time on thise, but it's still something that's gnawing at me.

 

[hong]

Everything stacks.

Yes, you get a crazy AC this way. See Super AC Man in the Sultans of Smack thread.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Everything stacks.

Everything stacks... but you cannot use Elaborate Parry unless you are also using either Flighting Defensively or Total Defense.

Combat Expertise by itself is not enough to allow Elaborate Parry.

-Hyp.

 

[Enforcer]

Everything stacks... but you cannot use Elaborate Parry unless you are also using either Flighting Defensively or Total Defense.

Combat Expertise by itself is not enough to allow Elaborate Parry.

-Hyp.

This directly answers the question I was asking, thank you. You're basing this assumption on the language of Elaborate Parry, which mentions fighting defensively and total defense specifically, but not Combat Expertise (and the language of Combat Expertise doesn't mention fighting defensively at all, it's its own system)?

 

[hong]

Everything stacks... but you cannot use Elaborate Parry unless you are also using either Flighting Defensively or Total Defense.

Combat Expertise by itself is not enough to allow Elaborate Parry.

-Hyp.

Bah. I knew what I was talking about, even if noone else does.

 

[Hypersmurf]

This directly answers the question I was asking, thank you.

Well, it almost answers it. Reading what I wrote, I have to wonder what "Flighting Defensively" is

You're basing this assumption on the language of Elaborate Parry...

That would seem the logical way to determine how Elaborate Parry works, yes

-Hyp.