Combat Expertise, Full Defense Actions, and Fighting Defensively

[Datt]

Ah, I missed that. Sorry. The Circle Kick, Whirlwind attack was a bad example.

But you are saying that you could pile on feat after feat as long as they don't say you can't with just 1 attack action?

 

[Camarath]

From SRD
COMBAT EXPERTISE [GENERAL]
Prerequisite: Int 13.
Benefit: When you use the attack action or the full attack action in melee, you can take a penalty of as much as –5 on your attack roll and add the same number (+5 or less) as a dodge bonus to your Armor Class. This number may not exceed your base attack bonus. The changes to attack rolls and Armor Class last until your next action.
Normal: A character without the Combat Expertise feat can fight defensively while using the attack or full attack action to take a –4 penalty on attack rolls and gain a +2 dodge bonus to Armor Class.
Special: A fighter may select Combat Expertise as one of his fighter bonus feats.

From SRD
Fighting Defensively as a Standard Action: You can choose to fight defensively when attacking. If you do so, you take a –4 penalty on all attacks in a round to gain a +2 dodge bonus to AC for the same round.

From SRD
Fighting Defensively as a Full-Round Action: You can choose to fight defensively when taking a full attack action. If you do so, you take a –4 penalty on all attacks in a round to gain a +2 dodge bonus to AC for the same round.


I see nothing that prohibits using both abilities on the same attack action. Do you think that one can use Power Attack and Combat Expertise on the same attack?

 

[Camarath]

But you are saying that you could pile on feat after feat as long as they don't say you can't with just 1 attack action?

I am saying penaties and bonuses (unless they grant a bonus type that does not stack) from abilities that modify your attacks stack and can be used together. I would allow power attack be used with whirlwind attack, power attack to stack with combat expertise, and for combat expertise to stack with fighting defensively. I can not find a rule that prevents these kind of abilities from stacking. And IMO if you are willing to pay the accumulative penaties I see nothing wrong with letting them be used in conjunction.

 

[Datt]

I don't think 1 action, attack or otherwise, should be able to be used to qualify for more than 1 feat or action.

Should Whirlwind Attack and Fighting Defensively allowed to stack? Fighting Defesnively isn't a feat, spell or ability so it isn't prohibited.

And why just stop with penalties and bonuses? What not actions?

 

[Spatula]

IShould Whirlwind Attack and Fighting Defensively allowed to stack?

Yes, why shouldn't they? It's no different than using Power Attack or Combat Expertise with a Whirlwind attack.

And why just stop with penalties and bonuses? What not actions?

?

 

[Datt]

Yes, why shouldn't they? It's no different than using Power Attack or Combat Expertise with a Whirlwind attack.

That's just it. You can't use Power Attack or Combat Expertise with Whirlwind Attack. It says as stated above "When you use the Whirlwind Attack feat, you also forfeit any bonus or extra attacks granted by other feats, spells, or abilities."

Since both power attack and combat expertise are bonuses granted by feats, they can't be used with Whirlwind attack.

 

[Camarath]

I don't think 1 action, attack or otherwise, should be able to be used to qualify for more than 1 feat or action.

There is a diffence between using a feat and performing an action. Say you have Skill Focus and Persuasive I think that the bonuses granted by these feat both apply (and stack) when you preform a bluff action.

Should Whirlwind Attack and Fighting Defensively allowed to stack? Fighting Defesnively isn't a feat, spell or ability so it isn't prohibited.

In my opinion, yes if you wanted to use Fighting Defensively and Whirlwind Attack together you should be able to do so.

And why just stop with penalties and bonuses? What not actions?

You can not use two different actions in the place of another action for example you can not replace one of your attacks with both a trip attack and a disarm attack. Penalties and bonuses modify actions they are not actions in and of them selves. Feats that give you bonuses on set actions do not IMO require a separate action to use (i.e. they can be activated for free when you use the action they modify).

 

[kreynolds]

That's just it. You can't use Power Attack or Combat Expertise with Whirlwind Attack.

That's not what WA says. It says...

...you also forfeit any bonus or extra attacks granted by other feats, spells, or abilities."

It's talking about extra attacks, such as those granted by Improved Two-Weapon Fighting, etc.

 

[psyronin]

From the 3.0 FAQ

You can fight defensively only when you use the full attack action or attack action (see page 124 of the Player’s Handbook), but if you do, you can use Expertise along with it. (Because fighting defensively is mentioned in the Expertise feat description on page 82 of the Player’s Handbook, some people think Expertise is just a better way of fighting defensively, but that’s not true.) When you use Expertise and defensive fighting together, you simply add up all the Armor Class bonuses and attack penalties. Note that both Expertise and defensive fighting provide dodge bonuses to Armor Class. Dodge bonuses, unlike most other bonuses in the game, stack (see page 119 in the Player’s Handbook). If the character in the previous example decided to fight defensively, she would add another +2 bonus to Armor Class (for a total of +4) and an extra –4 attack penalty, which would lessen her attacks to +1/– 4 and +1. The combination of Expertise and defensive fighting isn’t very efficient.

 

[Zaruthustran]

I don't think that 1 action can be used for multiple feats/special abilites.

So you can't drop someone with a Power Attack, then Cleave into someone else?

You can't Spring Attack a Stunning Fist?

You can't Power Attack a Ride-By-Attack?

You can't use Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Whip with Weapon Finesse?

Don't be absurd.

Of course you can use multiple feats on 1 action.

If I wanted, I could use the bonus to the Bluff skill (from the Persuasive feat) to successfully perform an Improved Feint on an Orc, which triggers my Expert Tactician attack, which I choose to be an Improved Trip (performed with my leg, since I have Improved Unarmed Strike). This succeeds, giving me an immediate attack on the Orc while he's on the ground (at +4 to-hit). I chose for this attack to be a disarm--no AoO from the Orc since I have the Improved Disarm feat. Then, since the feint attempt was only a Move action, I can take a standard action--an attack. I chose to add +4 of my BAB to Power Attack the Orc with my foot (another Improved Unarmed Attack) and also use Combat Expertise to put +1 of my BAB into my AC, as a guard against any counter-attack from the Orc. On his turn he picks up his weapon and stands up, provoking two AoOs from me. I have Combat Reflexes, so I take both AoOs. My first is another Power Attack with my foot. The second AoO (from standing up) is a Stunning Fist attack that succeeds, triggering Expert Tactician again (and making the Orc drop his weapon again due to Stun). My Expert Tactician attack is an Improved Trip, dropping the Orc to the ground again and triggering the Improved Trip followup attack. For this attack I jump on top of the Orc with an Improved Grapple (no AoO), and use Improved Unarmed Strike to deal damage.

Yes, of course you can use multiple feats on one action.

-z