Combat issues: slayer + at-will magic missile.

[Mercutio01]

In my brief playtest with just myself, I found that I stopped rolling attacks with the slayer and the wizard in the combat with the kobolds and the rats. It felt a little awkward to just be killing things without needing to roll, but they were kobolds and rats, so I overlooked it. Once the party moved into the orcs, it felt less problematic, and began to feel like a good idea. I thought I wouldn't like it, but the at-wills portion of 4E weren't really a problem for me.

 

[triqui]

As I said in my first post . . . I just find it boring. The slayer literally has no reason to roll the die. It's not so much that there is no chance of failure so much as there is no chance of success. Roll a 20 and all you get is a gorier description of the kobold's death from your DM.

It'll become a non-issue very quickly, but for kobolds and rats and other minion-esque monsters, the slayer may as well take a nap.

I understand there's this design goal where different characters excel in different encounters . . . I guess minions aren't the slayer's encounter. But it still just feels 'blah' to me.

Well, we have different views in the issue. I have no problem with a Slayer slaying minion-like monsters.

Kobolds chance to defeat a Slayer-Themed character is overbearing. The Slayer is going to kill one per turn (assuming low level and 1 attack). If you throw 12 or 15 kobolds at him, he is going to get down, leaving a trail of kobold corpses in the process. Against 5-8 kobolds, he probably will win, but heavily beated. 1-2 kobolds is just a nuisance.

For my play-taste (worst joke ever), it's ok. YMMV, though.

 

[Ravenbow]

My group finally got to try the play test. Initially slayer and at will mm was hated but as we progressed it was well received but my feedback will be "mm as a cantrip should be 1d4+1 but cannot exceed level"

It needs work but that's our take if it stays at will without an attack roll

 

[Lanefan]

Dude, they're kobolds.

Kobolds.

Chew through them and move on to the bigger threats.

That's just the point: at 1st level Kobolds should BE a threat. A 1st-level Fighter one-on-one against a Kobold should usually win but that victory should by no means be assured.

If they fall over if you so much as wave a sword in their general direction that's not much of a threat.

Simple houserule to at least partly fix: on a miss a Slayer does d4-1 (or d6-3, even better) damage. That way there's a chance of a complete miss and the Kobold surviving.

Lanefan

 

[mach1.9pants]

I think that kobolds should only be a threat if there are masses of them (ganging up for advantage) or they are in ambush/trap mode. Both of which say DnD Kobolds to me. Outside those two cases , in a fair ish fight, they should get slaughtered by a full up party.
5E does this so I am happy

 

[Ellington]

I think the magic missile mechanic should be the same as it is currently, but it should be a spell and not a cantrip.

Getting an infinite amount of sure-hit damage can lead to all kinds of problems.

 

[mach1.9pants]

I think the magic missile mechanic should be the same as it is currently, but it should be a spell and not a cantrip.

Getting an infinite amount of sure-hit damage can lead to all kinds of problems.

Like what can you elaborate please

 

[Lanefan]

Like what can you elaborate please

Different person answering but I can see some potential problems with infinite auto-hit damage:

1. In a battle between two casters with no outside interference, whoever wins initiative wins the battle, pure and simple; as the init. winner can always hold and interrupt whatever the loser tries to cast and as a pleasant side effect slowly inflict damage until the init. loser dies. Unless, of course, spell interruption rules are much different than what I'm expecting.

2. It's infinite. Infinite in any form is problematic (for lots of examples, see Magic the Gathering); in the right situation a wizard who can by whatever means remain out of reach of her opponent can kill any living thing d4+1 h.p. at a time unless that living thing also casts spells and can retaliate in kind, in which case see problem 1.

Magic Missile should be auto-hit, but by whatever means quite limited in number castable per day. If there must be an at-will damage spell (which to me is a very doubtful thing) it needs to both carry an attack roll and have some risk of failure (e.g. hitting a friend).

Lanefan

 

[mach1.9pants]

I don't understand your first point, you cannot interrupt a minor spell if they both spam MM. Spell interruption of levelled spells is only a dc10 (or 11, cant remember) con check
As to you second it is valid but not far off what can be achieved with a bow, the misses being made up by the pretty much double damage. I just don't see it as a major problem and it is something that makes wizards wizardy.

 

[underfoot007ct]

I think the magic missile mechanic should be the same as it is currently, but it should be a spell and not a cantrip.

Getting an infinite amount of sure-hit damage can lead to all kinds of problems.

How is that, Cantrip are listed as minor spells on the char sheet. So MM is a spell technically.

And currently MAGIC MISSILE is a Wizard spell 1 At-will 2+int mod = dam, auto hit. How is that really any different?

 

[Eridanis]

Just a general note to remind everyone to keep edition warring out of these kind of threads, and to stay on topic. Thank you.

 

[FireLance]

I personally don't see automatic damage as a problem, but to address these concerns, maybe we should have a rule that a missed attack cannot reduce the target's hp to 0 or below. That way, the final blow that kills an opponent will always be a hit.

If you like, you can also flip it around for saving throws, i.e. if you pass your saving throw, you will always have at least 1 hp left.

This way, for magic missile, the wizard deals automatic damage, but must roll to see if he "hits" an opponent with low hit points. Alternatively, the low-hp opponent must succeed on a Dexterity save or die.

 

[patrick y.]

That's just the point: at 1st level Kobolds should BE a threat. A 1st-level Fighter one-on-one against a Kobold should usually win but that victory should by no means be assured.

Kobolds have been cannon fodder for decades. The whole reason DM's got into trying to wipe out parties using only fiendishly cunning kobolds was because they've always been pathetic.

 

[I'm A Banana]

That's just the point: at 1st level Kobolds should BE a threat. A 1st-level Fighter one-on-one against a Kobold should usually win but that victory should by no means be assured.

Respectfully, I disagree.

Kobolds are the scum on the bottom of the barrel in D&D. They are not threats themselves. That's why they build traps, fight strategically, run away frequently, use overwhelming numbers, and duplicitous tactics.

A fighter is a paragon of strength and power, an elite warrior trained in the ways of combat.

Kobolds are junk to that guy.

What makes a kobold dangerous isn't the individual kobold, but their quantity, their cunning, their ruthlessness, and their traps.

Admittedly, I think these kobolds in the playtest could use a bit more mechanical oomph behind those ideas, but their HP is right where a kobold's should be, IMO: The Worst.

 

[LostSoul]

Number of problems with at-will magic missile with an attack roll: it's not D&D.

Magic Missile requires an attack roll in OD&D.

 

[Stalker0]

I personally would like to prevent MM from scaling, I agree that autoscaling doesn't seem the place for cantrips.

Further, even if the damage doesn't scale, there is always a use for autohitting.

Player: "Quick, cut the rope and drop the bricks on them!"
Wizard: "I got this" Casts MM.

 

[Gorgoroth]

...

Magic Missile, in my 2nd edition evoker, was rarely used, because I'd often be better off using a different first level spell at that level. I cast it maybe a dozen times in 5 years of playing up to level 14. Lightning Bolt, on the other hand....

If I had Magic Missile at-will I would have spammed it and used all my other spell slots for first level spells on sleep or charm person or other stuff useful outside of combat. I do see the benefit of making it require an attack roll since it's unlimited, but in a wizard vs wizard fight, rings of MM protection should be common enough, and memorizing that should be a no-brainer if you are going up against another wizard and don't want your other spells auto-interrupted. Just delay your turn till right after their next blast and the interrupt protection should go up one segment later. Bam, done.

I do like the idea of an at-will choice that does more damage but requires a roll too, b/c some people like to gamble and others like to have some quick rounds that require no thought to keep combats flowing quickly for everyone, b/c wizards often take longer turns to evaluate more complex spell effects with the DM on his "big show" rounds.

 

[patrick y.]

I personally would like to prevent MM from scaling, I agree that autoscaling doesn't seem the place for cantrips.

Further, even if the damage doesn't scale, there is always a use for autohitting.

Player: "Quick, cut the rope and drop the bricks on them!"
Wizard: "I got this" Casts MM.

I've been musing on the idea of having MM scale if you memorize it as a 1st level spell. So, the wizard retains it as an at will cantrip that does d4+1, but he could also choose to memorize it as a 1st level spell that scales up by 1 missile every 2 caster levels, to a maximum of 5 missiles.

 

[jadrax]

I personally would like to prevent MM from scaling, I agree that autoscaling doesn't seem the place for cantrips.

Further, even if the damage doesn't scale, there is always a use for autohitting.

Player: "Quick, cut the rope and drop the bricks on them!"
Wizard: "I got this" Casts MM.

Currently, if you accept how the spell is worded, that would only work if the rope was a 'creature'.

Although if not, the fact that Magic Missile basically trivialises all such situations, is the biggest issue with it.

 

[The Little Raven]

I personally would like to prevent MM from scaling, I agree that autoscaling doesn't seem the place for cantrips.

I disagree. I think an at-will spell that a character is expected to use throughout his entire career should scale in some way to keep it somewhat interesting.