Combat revision

[magic_gathering2001]

Armor provides DR/- equal to it's armor value and a Dex penalty equal to 8+enhancement bonus-its max DEX bonus.

The granted movement because of damage increase incorporates the charging.

Traps that make attack rolls will work like this but save traps will work normally.

Time will increase at low levels but decrease at higher ones(no itinerative attacks). To get around this I'm imposing a -4 penalty to a routine not prepared in advance of combat which should shorten the time period, is it still too long?

 

[Primitive Screwhead]

In my group it would take too long, even with prescripted routines....

of course, my group is 6 to 8 players, of whom 1 knows the rules well enough to help run the combat. The others are still learning Heck, it almost takes too long with normal combat!

In a smaller group, 2- 4 maybe, of people who understand the rules enough to have thier actions ready when it comes time for thier turn... it could work. I think it would be a great system for a Duelist-centric campaign.

Check out the Armor as DR thread.. some good thoughts in there. The variable armor values miight be a good idea as well, even tho thats one more dice roll to add.

 

[magic_gathering2001]

While I was digging around for a thread on it I found something else:

You can have your armor take damage for you. I like it but i don't know how it would work as far as balance and time go?

 

[Fighter1]

I have seen similar things as many of us have; both here and in a select few games. The guys at the SCA came up with something like this – played it once.

D20 serves to be mechanical only; you "imagine" the battle between yourself and your foe. How you strike him to inflict damage…etc. Additionally the standard D20 combat was designed to be as simple as possible with Hit Points vs. BAB vs. AC. Each variable gets pluses and minuses depending on various other variables that on has access to depending on wealth and such…

This allows for faster game play and leaves room open for a variety of new rules, tasks, abilities, player and DM (and so on) inputs into the mix without having to worry about counter balances within the structure (as you just give a plus and a minus).

Thus it is simple enough for anyone to use at the same time as having flexibility enough to allow for lots of changes not to mention leaving room for the imagination.

In this new type of a system you are actually carrying very specific actions and counter-actions; leaving little room for the imagination or if a rule changes or a new ability shows up, etc.. Could make it more realistic…but why? If you want that there are a few products out there with advanced systems to do this sort of a thing with. IMO these “detailed” systems are far to limiting to new material and cumbersome to use.

To make the game more complex for the “reality” of it to me is unnecessary. The game is unreal. If WoTC adopted such a thing would we now have to start explaining how magic works? Apply physics to it? Evaluating each class for a “reality check”?

 

[Primitive Screwhead]

This thread here

They go pretty in depth into the whys and why nots of Armor.

[sidetrack]
I was recently in a coversation concerning being able to damage armor, and I like the variant where armor can protect against Critical hits.. it was in a 'sunder armor' thread somewhere...
Basically armor works per RAW but crit hits deal damage to the armor first. Each 5 hps of damage drops the armors AC bonus by 1.
Additionally, a shield wearer can burn an AoO to sacrifice his shield to block an attack, with the damage going to the shield. The shield gets a temp HP bonus of your BAB times 5 that gets reduced after the normal hps. This means a strong hit can still continue through to the weilder. [/sidetrack]

But thats not what the Iron Heroes deal does. Basically Iron heroes {as I understand it} grants armor a DR value of a dice... shades of Elric I think the example posted was plate mail granting a 1D8+2 DR.. so a lucky hit can still penetrate.

Balance wise, I don't think this version is any worse than any other DR variant. I do prefer the extra randomness. But, it is one more die roll and more math in the round. :\

 

[magic_gathering2001]

Fighter1:
I don't think the system takes away from the imagination part of combat at all, and can't see where you're coming from on that. As for my reasoning it is this:

Dragon claws 1st level fighter for 9 damage, fighter barely lives. Cleric casts cure light wounds on fighter and brings him to full.

Dragon claws 20thg level fighter for 50 damage. Fighter is barely injured but cleric must cast heal the most powerful healing spell they have to bring him back to full. I can't rationally explain that so I need a way around it.

Primitive Screwhead:
I used set DR because combat already involves a LOT af dice rolling and randomness. The crit to armor idea would slow down combat even more, don't exist as per the current rules, and IMO should bypass armor not damage it

 

[Fighter1]

Fighter1:
I don't think the system takes away from the imagination part of combat at all, and can't see where you're coming from on that. As for my reasoning it is this:

Dragon claws 1st level fighter for 9 damage, fighter barely lives. Cleric casts cure light wounds on fighter and brings him to full.

Dragon claws 20thg level fighter for 50 damage. Fighter is barely injured but cleric must cast heal the most powerful healing spell they have to bring him back to full. I can't rationally explain that so I need a way around it.

Dragon?
To a 1st level cleric “Cure Light Wounds” is the most powerful magic he can get to heal. It is all relative. A dollar in the U.S. is something else in another nation yet it is still a dollar.

Yet a PC is not relative to others; he is not a 1st level commoner – he can take more and as such to get back what he lost it needs more.

Also recall that 50 points would wipe out a platoon of commoners or more. As our heroes gain levels they become more powerful; just like the heroes in movies doing the impossible.

It sorta goes like this (at least the way I believe it to be):
Hit Points: Not how much "damage" you can take but more like your staying power; endurance in combat and ability to take scrapes and bruises here and there. You only really get hit bad when you hit 0; the rest is superficial “damage”. Think about it; why would a Barb have d12 and not d10? Because he is “tougher” (that does not make him better, to note) and can “take more”. Why does a wizard have d4? Because he spent zero time on his body; getting strong and tough…he spent it all reading books.

Armor Class: The better armor you have the less you can get damaged because your body is covered and/or you have a shield. Makes sense that you would be harder to damage.

Base Attack Bonus: The more combat oriented; the higher the BAB is. Makes sense that a martial character has a higher one than others.

Pop the three together and it works; quite well. Not only that but I can add and take away with ease.

In a system you propose things get far more complex – I can’t just roll the D20 and see what happens.

Additionally I fail to see; thus far; the benefit of attacking a particular area of an opponent in such a game unless that damage is important; like taking out a leg. But then you now have to make all sorts of rules to deal with that.

 

[magic_gathering2001]

Dragon?

Just an example

To a 1st level cleric “Cure Light Wounds” is the most powerful magic he can get to heal. It is all relative. A dollar in the U.S. is something else in another nation yet it is still a dollar.

true but defeated by your next point

Yet a PC is not relative to others; he is not a 1st level commoner – he can take more and as such to get back what he lost it needs more.

Also recall that 50 points would wipe out a platoon of commoners or more. As our heroes gain levels they become more powerful; just like the heroes in movies doing the impossible.

It sorta goes like this (at least the way I believe it to be):
Hit Points: Not how much "damage" you can take but more like your staying power; endurance in combat and ability to take scrapes and bruises here and there. You only really get hit bad when you hit 0; the rest is superficial “damage”. Think about it; why would a Barb have d12 and not d10? Because he is “tougher” (that does not make him better, to note) and can “take more”. Why does a wizard have d4? Because he spent zero time on his body; getting strong and tough…he spent it all reading books.

This is exactly the reason why the above simulation doesn't work. The fighter is barely injured but the cleric needs to cast the most powerfull healing spell they can to completely heal him.

Armor Class: The better armor you have the less you can get damaged because your body is covered and/or you have a shield. Makes sense that you would be harder to damage.

Base Attack Bonus: The more combat oriented; the higher the BAB is. Makes sense that a martial character has a higher one than others.

Pop the three together and it works; quite well. Not only that but I can add and take away with ease.

Yes it does, but attack bonus goes up as you level and AC doesn't? Also, Hp goes up but damage doesn't?

In a system you propose things get far more complex – I can’t just roll the D20 and see what happens.

Additionally I fail to see; thus far; the benefit of attacking a particular area of an opponent in such a game unless that damage is important; like taking out a leg. But then you now have to make all sorts of rules to deal with that.

 

[Fighter1]

Just an example
true but defeated by your next point

Sorry I did not mean to have the “?” there…

I don’t agree with the defeating bit; perspective I think.

This is exactly the reason why the above simulation doesn't work. The fighter is barely injured but the cleric needs to cast the most powerfull healing spell they can to completely heal him.

Ok…your point is making better sense. But we are also talking about power levels here (not that that is an actual cannon term). The fighter’s power lies in taking and inflicting damage – in one sense that scale is higher than the cleric’s healing ability; thus the fighter’s HP’s outrun the cleric’s healing at higher levels. In other aspects; say area effect, where the fighter cannot compete the Cleric (or any caster) wins. The fighter can only whack one guy at a time.

I hope that makes sense…

Yes it does, but attack bonus goes up as you level and AC doesn't? Also, Hp goes up but damage doesn't?

Now here is where you made an error; you did not include my entire post (or perhaps I was not clear enough to make it sound relevant in my post); what goes into this mix is also wealth and the whole party’s ability(ies).

Armor:
Beings, like Humans, only have their skin. What we do for protection is make it or buy it. That is the balance; the higher level you go the more money you SHOULD accumulate (if the DM is doing right by you) and thus the more you can afford. In the team if a caster has the ability to make items…they loose experience as the team gains AC; a trade off for the TEAM.

Damage:
Same thing as armor applies but with added factors; damage is more than just “+ X” or added damage dice; it is also the ability to even inflict damage at all, do it consistently, put oneself in a more advantageous position, etc.

For example; with casters; they get increased damage dice and such per level. Fighters get more feats, Barbarians get DR and more rage, Rouges get more Sneak Attack Damage, etc. etc. For all the martial classes they get a better chance to hit at every level (and thus inflict more damage).

And let us all not also forget that the game (as in real life) things are designed around the team. The Rouge can’t flank without a solid combatant on the other side, the Wizard cannot cast without some protection, the Fighter cannot fight without some ranged type of support (casting or weapon) and buffing always helps. And EVERYONE needs healing…

 

[magic_gathering2001]

Now here is where you made an error; you did not include my entire post (or perhaps I was not clear enough to make it sound relevant in my post); what goes into this mix is also wealth and the whole party’s ability(ies).

Armor:
Beings, like Humans, only have their skin. What we do for protection is make it or buy it. That is the balance; the higher level you go the more money you SHOULD accumulate (if the DM is doing right by you) and thus the more you can afford. In the team if a caster has the ability to make items…they loose experience as the team gains AC; a trade off for the TEAM.

That isn't what i was trying to say, As character level increases, Attack bonus increases. A character can still spend money on attack bonus increase, the same is not true for AC. All AC is bought. The designers tried to balance this by making more AC items but in the end just created to ACs those of the AC monkeys (>40 at high levels) and those of the not so AC monkeys(<30 at high levels) BAB is fairly constant at around +30 for combatants and 20 for wizards(who are supposed to be casting spells at that level anyway)

Damage:
Same thing as armor applies but with added factors; damage is more than just “+ X” or added damage dice; it is also the ability to even inflict damage at all, do it consistently, put oneself in a more advantageous position, etc.

For example; with casters; they get increased damage dice and such per level. Fighters get more feats, Barbarians get DR and more rage, Rouges get more Sneak Attack Damage, etc. etc.

The only good example is the rohue.

For all the martial classes they get a better chance to hit at every level (and thus inflict more damage).

This is the problem! AC and to hit should be balanced not to hit, damage, and HP, unless your an AC monkey.

And let us all not also forget that the game (as in real life) things are designed around the team. The Rouge can’t flank without a solid combatant on the other side, the Wizard cannot cast without some protection, the Fighter cannot fight without some ranged type of support (casting or weapon) and buffing always helps. And EVERYONE needs healing…

My system doesn't really afect these things as far as I know, (except the removal of the AoO)