comeliness
- Thread starter alsih2o
- Start date
Indeed, but genetics help determine social/cultural constructs. If you don't believe this, think about how emotions alone have shaped society. What in-built emotional needs and instincts (such as fear of loss of security, need for commitment, love for the partner etc.) drive people to want to marry? Society and genetics are inextricably linked - and much confusion is wrought by trying to pigeonhole the two into "this is caused by culture" (e.g. marriage) and "this is caused by genes" (e.g. the brain that decides it wants to marry) boxes. I'm sure that some people will want to argue against this because there is much theory supporting almost opposite ideas to this, and attribute a whole world of things to "society" alone, asserting that genes have nothing to do with society or culture...I've made my choice on which theory makes the most sense to me, at this stage at least.
Them too - but they're not the only reasons, just as your symmetry citation in the earlier post isn't the only metric of beauty. I didn't state that the "less likely to be pregnant already" thing was the only reason why young women may be more attractive as mates. These are complex issues, and oversimplification by summarising into one or two causes can be inaccurate. I am not absolved of guilt in this respect myself.
I'm not so sure about that, hong. What's to stop an enterprising Transmuter overcoming encounters by Alter Selfing or Polymorph Selfing herself into a sexy beast? An otyugh with supermodel league good looks - hot hot hot! You're welcome in the trash pile with that kind of talent.
Encounter overcome/bypassed! XP: Ka-ching!
EDIT: One stumbling block - how does said Transmuter know what constitutes beauty to an otyugh? Back to the drawing board...
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ninthcouncil
First Post
It's worth remembering that in medieval European terms, "beautiful" translates partly as "does not have smallpox scars" Milkmaids had a reputation for comeliness - they'd been immunised by cowpox and tended not to get smallpox.
Many of our standards of beauty reflect secondary indicators of good health, rather than some obscure aesthetic ordained by god knows whom.
Milkmaids had a reputation for comeliness - they'd been immunised by cowpox and tended not to get smallpox.Many of our standards of beauty reflect secondary indicators of good health, rather than some obscure aesthetic ordained by god knows whom.
cultural differences aside...
I've never been thrilled with the notion that the charisma score should be lumped together with good looks. Anyone here ever meet an absolute babe that was a jerk? Of course you have. How about an average person that has "animal magnetism"?
I've got friends that women rate as "nothing special" to average looks, but somehow are totally attracted to them solely because of their personality. Most of the great leaders of the world are not physically attractive, in fact they're just the opposite most of the time, but they have powerful personalities and what I would attribute to be an exceptional charisma score in game terms.
Personally, I could go with divorcing the physical attractiveness from charisma entirely, and have the player make their character as attractive or disgusting as they wish. If they think by making their character drop-dead gorgeous is going to help them in some way they can think again... or they can have a comeliness stat like in the old unearthed arcana. I think that if good looks is somehow going to mechanically affect the game there needs to be a quantifyible measurement of it. If all players can accept it being a die roll, then fine, let them roll for it, and they can deal with it. A couple of us have had disputes on whether comeliness should be used, and we've pretty much dropped it from our game. In other games such as Shadowrun, we have a simple edge or flaw that can be purchased to utilize good looks, otherwise I just assume that everyone's characters have average looks.
I do like the idea of having a feat for good looks, but I think there's also the potential of abuse as the benefits could stack with other feats, giving a bard or a thief an ungodly diplomacy and bluff score.
I've never been thrilled with the notion that the charisma score should be lumped together with good looks. Anyone here ever meet an absolute babe that was a jerk? Of course you have. How about an average person that has "animal magnetism"?
I've got friends that women rate as "nothing special" to average looks, but somehow are totally attracted to them solely because of their personality. Most of the great leaders of the world are not physically attractive, in fact they're just the opposite most of the time, but they have powerful personalities and what I would attribute to be an exceptional charisma score in game terms.
Personally, I could go with divorcing the physical attractiveness from charisma entirely, and have the player make their character as attractive or disgusting as they wish. If they think by making their character drop-dead gorgeous is going to help them in some way they can think again... or they can have a comeliness stat like in the old unearthed arcana. I think that if good looks is somehow going to mechanically affect the game there needs to be a quantifyible measurement of it. If all players can accept it being a die roll, then fine, let them roll for it, and they can deal with it. A couple of us have had disputes on whether comeliness should be used, and we've pretty much dropped it from our game. In other games such as Shadowrun, we have a simple edge or flaw that can be purchased to utilize good looks, otherwise I just assume that everyone's characters have average looks.
I do like the idea of having a feat for good looks, but I think there's also the potential of abuse as the benefits could stack with other feats, giving a bard or a thief an ungodly diplomacy and bluff score.
Jeremy Ackerman-Yost
Explorer
Re: Re: comeliness
Actually, like all other things related to attractiveness, that's open for debate. In a medieval setting, the knight in full plate was a hero and nobleman who probably awed the peasantry by his very presence. That's definitely NOT a negative modifier. And I know a few women who find men in armor attractive (probably social programming from reading too many "knight in shining armor" stories, but it still results in a more positive reaction). Let's say you're a shopkeeper and a guy comes clanging in to the store in full armor and demands to see your finest swords. Not only are you going to be more impressed with him than the guy in a woodsman's outfit, but you're also going to look at that armor and figure this guy's got cash. Positive modifier to reaction again (though it might apply a penalty to haggling). Armor is, after all, a display of wealth. Merchants definitely react positively to that. And let's not kid ourselves, many people who wouldn't get a second look if they were middle class get a lot of attention from the opposite sex if they're wealthy. And it's not always greed motivated. Wealth and power are genuine attractive agents, especially to women (basic evolutionary psychology there, not sexism. Females invest more in offspring, seeking a mate who can provide greater resources is bred in the bone)
As for the "beauty mask" and all that. For one thing, those studies were indeed heavily biased toward Caucasian and Asian subjects (and really only certain Asian subpopulations). I think the most recent one also included Latin American groups, but I'm not sure. They also had some interesting results from that which are generally ignored. Many people scored the composite faces as beautiful or very pretty, but post experimental interviews and questionnaires often showed something along the lines of "She's very pretty, but not really for me." The long and the short of it is, there was a great deal of aesthetic appreciation of these faces, but, to put it bluntly, very few people wanted to sleep with them. There are some theories about this that suggest it's the little imperfections and asymmetries that allow us to get a handle on faces. "Perfect" faces are pleasing to the eye, but ultimately they're very forgettable. They're more like a painting or a landscape than a person.
Loren Pechtel said:
Actually, like all other things related to attractiveness, that's open for debate. In a medieval setting, the knight in full plate was a hero and nobleman who probably awed the peasantry by his very presence. That's definitely NOT a negative modifier. And I know a few women who find men in armor attractive (probably social programming from reading too many "knight in shining armor" stories, but it still results in a more positive reaction). Let's say you're a shopkeeper and a guy comes clanging in to the store in full armor and demands to see your finest swords. Not only are you going to be more impressed with him than the guy in a woodsman's outfit, but you're also going to look at that armor and figure this guy's got cash. Positive modifier to reaction again (though it might apply a penalty to haggling). Armor is, after all, a display of wealth. Merchants definitely react positively to that. And let's not kid ourselves, many people who wouldn't get a second look if they were middle class get a lot of attention from the opposite sex if they're wealthy. And it's not always greed motivated. Wealth and power are genuine attractive agents, especially to women (basic evolutionary psychology there, not sexism. Females invest more in offspring, seeking a mate who can provide greater resources is bred in the bone)
As for the "beauty mask" and all that. For one thing, those studies were indeed heavily biased toward Caucasian and Asian subjects (and really only certain Asian subpopulations). I think the most recent one also included Latin American groups, but I'm not sure. They also had some interesting results from that which are generally ignored. Many people scored the composite faces as beautiful or very pretty, but post experimental interviews and questionnaires often showed something along the lines of "She's very pretty, but not really for me." The long and the short of it is, there was a great deal of aesthetic appreciation of these faces, but, to put it bluntly, very few people wanted to sleep with them. There are some theories about this that suggest it's the little imperfections and asymmetries that allow us to get a handle on faces. "Perfect" faces are pleasing to the eye, but ultimately they're very forgettable. They're more like a painting or a landscape than a person.
