D&D (2024) Command is the Perfect Encapsulation of Everything I Don't Like About 5.5e

[mellored]

Suggestion is the arcane version.

How Minigiant would do it.

Divine
Command
Demand (language dependent, lasts multiple turns)
Greater Command (command restrictions removed)
Greater Demand (increase targets)

Arcane
Suggestion
Mass Suggestion (increases targets)

Primal
Command Beasts (only for beasts, multiple targets)
Command Plants (only for plants, multiple targets)

Martial
Commander's stike (ally only)
Commanding stike (any adjacent enemy)
Commanding army (all creatures, multiple turns)

 

[Daztur]

It's that kind of thinking that has, one edition then the next, ruined Illusionists.

A lot of illusions are TOO open-ended. I like how TSR/3.0e/5e Command very specifically defines what it does but also allows the door open to creativity. Just a great spell that's a lot of fun.

Command shows up fairly often at low level in my games, sometimes with some funky one-word instructions given. Even at higher level it gets busted out now and then.

Yes, it also scales very well with upcasting.

Just going to say Suggestion is still in the game. If you want to do any of that stuff you still can.

Just not at level 1

My complaint is more than the flexibility. I LIKE the restrictions on it from it having to be one word to it having to be an actual word, not mind control so that things like not knowing the language or (logically) plugging your ears with wax are enough to stop it. Having the flavor of the spell MATTER not just being an irrelevant line of text really makes it feel more real and not just a game mechanic to me.

In any case Suggestion (especially now that 5.5e buffed it) always just felt OPed to me if I used it to its full potential so I've held off on using it in most games. With Command I always feel free to go balls to the wall with it because of how its limited.

I agree with OP. The old Command was IMO how a spell should be; some listed mechanical effects but also flavor that allowed you to freely play with the idea of the spell. I much prefer that as opposed to just mechanical effects.

It would be better for the game overall if spells relied just a bit more on user interpretation. IMO, that's what makes magic cool -- how we interpret it.

Exactly. It's not that I want the raw power of mind controlling people, it's how its mechanical effects and its flavor were so wonderfully intertwined. It's the kind of design I'd like to see more of, not be stripped out of the game.

Here is the issue.

There should be a greater command spell.

Command: restricted commands as level one spell.

Greater Command: unrestricted commands as level 5 spell.

The issue isn't "ruling over rules.". The issue is that if you decide that you want to have a minimal amount of splat books then when you balance the original core rules you're going to eventually cut out much of the flavor.

Now that's just silly. "Greater Command" would be ludicrously underpowered for a 5th level spell. And hell, if the original Command was overpowered I'd have no problem nerfing it. Lower its range, give the target advantage on the saving throw if the room is noisy, whatever. I'm not after the raw power, just how the spell rewards creativity and how the flavor and the mechanics of the spells match so beautifully.

In any case in terms of raw power 5.5e Command is, if anything, buffed. "Flee" and "grovel" are POWERFUL uses of the Command spells and they've just had the restrictions on being cast on undead and people who don't speak your language removed. WotC isn't changing Command because it's too powerful (if they were then why buff it?) but because they apparently don't like more open-ended spells and abilities.

Would you do the same for weapon attacks?

Sure, if I note a weakness in a monster and the PCs find a way to take advantage of that with their weapon attacks I give them something appropriate.

Maybe houserule it to split the difference. The standard Commands work on anyone, they're compulsions you can push into their minds. But you can give different Commands if the target can understand you.

Just don't like the buff to the spell that it can affect people who can't understand what you're saying. Really like the original rules/flavor that it hinges on people understanding what you're saying. Would let people do stuff like avoid Command if they stuffed their ears with wax like Odysseus or what have you since I really like the flavor of spells mattering.

Urg! Poorly written spell descriptions with vague interpretations are the thing I hate the most about D&D. To the point in my current campaign, I've flat out banned all full caster classes. I'm just sick to death of dealing with it. No thanks.

Casters need to be reigned in but I prefer reigning in their raw power over their ability to be sneaky rat bastards.

I've had DMs that abused command. For example a DM that hated players wearing heavy armor was running a game on a ship (this was an AL equivalent game, not a sailing campaign). He had an NPC command my PC to jump and then told me that it was obvious that I should jump off the side of the ship. Instead of ... I don't know ... jump straight up, jump onto some other part of the ship, jump into his arms ... pretty much anything else. Nope, I had to jump off the side of the ship where of course I sunk like a rock.

So I don't have a problem with clear limitations and results for a first level spell. A lot of people avoid it because it's so vague.

No rules can fix naughty word DMs.

My favorite was always “defecate” just to see what the DM came up with.

Yeah, have seen that too. It's silly and immature but it's fun. D&D should be fun

 

[TiQuinn]

This is exactly how I feel and have felt this way for quite some time, probably 3 years if not more. Honestly, I wasn't to be impressed with 5E and didn't actually play it until June 2015 and that game fizzled out after a few sessions. I didn't play again until 2018 for about 6-8 months, and then we played from late 2020 to 2021. But none of our games lasted too long, so since it came out in 2014 I've probably only played it for maybe 2 years on and off, and that was because myself and my group didn't find it very fun, and it didn't really innovate anything. The 2024 revision to me seems like a step backwards from what I can gather from online information. Bottom line is that I think to get something truly new and worth playing, as unlikely as it may be, I would like to see D&D in the hands of a smaller company that are passionate about the game and whose success depends on them making quality products.

Quite honestly, this is why I’ve gravitated towards stuff like Shadowdark and OSE recently. They simply don’t have the baggage that D&D carries with it.

 

[Shardstone]

Would you do the same for weapon attacks?

No, but I would for certain Weapon Masteries and uses of skills and tools.

 

[Shardstone]

Maybe houserule it to split the difference. The standard Commands work on anyone, they're compulsions you can push into their minds. But you can give different Commands if the target can understand you.

Ah that's a great idea, that last line. Will play with that!

 

[Shardstone]

Urg! Poorly written spell descriptions with vague interpretations are the thing I hate the most about D&D. To the point in my current campaign, I've flat out banned all full caster classes. I'm just sick to death of dealing with it. No thanks.

I believe we exist on two entirely opposite ends of the spectrum in terms of game style hahahaha

 

[Daztur]

This is exactly how I feel and have felt this way for quite some time, probably 3 years if not more. Honestly, I wasn't to be impressed with 5E and didn't actually play it until June 2015 and that game fizzled out after a few sessions. I didn't play again until 2018 for about 6-8 months, and then we played from late 2020 to 2021. But none of our games lasted too long, so since it came out in 2014 I've probably only played it for maybe 2 years on and off, and that was because myself and my group didn't find it very fun, and it didn't really innovate anything. The 2024 revision to me seems like a step backwards from what I can gather from online information. Bottom line is that I think to get something truly new and worth playing, as unlikely as it may be, I would like to see D&D in the hands of a smaller company that are passionate about the game and whose success depends on them making quality products.

Thanks to WotC backing down after the OGL debacle last year, the fate of D&D as a general cultural thing is more secure than ever. There is army of small companies making their own versions of D&D. I'm gearing up for a Beyond the Wall campaign myself, just because the official version isn't to your tastes doesn't mean you can't have fun with one of the MANY MANY versions of the rules out there.

My general expectation of the 5.5e era is that it'll look a lot like 3.5e in general outline: 5.*e as still dominant but with more and more third party presses getting attention for their own versions of the rules and more effort spent by third party presses in creating alternatives to 5.*e than supporting it.

 

[TiQuinn]

Maybe houserule it to split the difference. The standard Commands work on anyone, they're compulsions you can push into their minds. But you can give different Commands if the target can understand you.

I think that’s a nice change. Honestly I’ve always disliked languages in D&D. I’d rather get rid of stuff like Comprehend Languages and just deal with Common.

 

[R_J_K75]

Quite honestly, this is why I’ve gravitated towards stuff like Shadowdark and OSE recently. They simply don’t have the baggage that D&D carries with it.

Same here. They are quicker reads, less to remember and not as fiddly. 2014 5E is just a slog to read, and hard to remember a lot of things, at least for me. Prepping and running games and even being a player seemed more like work to me after while than a fun hobby. And I don't think I've ever run a strictly 5E game, it was always an amalgamation of 3.x, and 5E, and this wasn't intentional.

 

[Daztur]

I believe we exist on two entirely opposite ends of the spectrum in terms of game style hahahaha

Yup, same here. I think I stated my own place on the D&D spectrum 12 years ago pretty clearly: [Very Long] Combat as Sport vs. Combat as War: a Key Difference in D&D Play Styles... and I haven't changed much in my views since then.

Although 5e was never my favorite edition it was a good enough compromise that I had fun with it playing with a lot of people on different bits of that spectrum. Although 5.5e doesn't change that much it changes enough that I don't feel confident in WotC trying to keep the game in that compromise sweet spot, especially as with things like Tasha's WotC has been headed away from being a compromise with me for a while now.

Same here. They are quicker reads, less to remember and not as fiddly. 2014 5E is just a slog to read, and hard to remember a lot of things, at least for me. Prepping and running games and even being a player seemed more like work to me after while than a fun hobby. And I don't think I've ever run a strictly 5E game, it was always an amalgamation of 3.x, and 5E, and this wasn't intentional.

And this is another strike against 5.5e for me. I often have an easier time learning entirely new rules than newer version of the rules I already know. I've CONSTANTLY gotten 3.5e and 5e rules mixed up, but I never get D&D and Blades in the Dark rules mixed up. I feel certain if I ran 5.5e, I'd be getting naughty word mixed up a lot.

Of course with some practice I'd eventually stop getting naughty word mixed up (just like I don't put many 3.5e-isms in my 5e games anymore), it's just that 5.5e has to be a clear upgrade from 5e to be worth the hassle of getting my brain to remember all of the hundred little differences. I just don't see it being worth the bother at this point. Will check out 6e and give it a shot if it passes my "does this edition naughty word up the Command spell?" litmus test.