D&D (2024) Command is the Perfect Encapsulation of Everything I Don't Like About 5.5e

[Hussar]

And I remain flummoxed that you continue to insist that dismounting and groveling are equivalent.

Hrm....

Dismount - character gets off mount and ends turn. That's how Command works.
Grovel - Character gets off mount and goes prone. That's how Command works.

Not seeing an enormous difference here. I mean, frankly, why would you use "dismount" and not "grovel" in the first place? But, in any case, the character is no longer mounted and has ended the turn. Not exactly massive differences here.

But, I notice you're not bringing up things like "spin". NPC turns around once and ends turn. How is this different than "Halt"?

Like I said, about a quarter of the "creative" Commands give you the same result as standard commands, about a quarter are gibberish with no meaning (repent? hug?) and the rest are pretty obvious power grabs.

 

[SableWyvern]

Hrm....

Dismount - character gets off mount and ends turn. That's how Command works.
Grovel - Character gets off mount and goes prone. That's how Command works.

Not seeing an enormous difference here. I mean, frankly, why would you use "dismount" and not "grovel" in the first place? But, in any case, the character is no longer mounted and has ended the turn. Not exactly massive differences here.

But, I notice you're not bringing up things like "spin". NPC turns around once and ends turn. How is this different than "Halt"?

Like I said, about a quarter of the "creative" Commands give you the same result as standard commands, about a quarter are gibberish with no meaning (repent? hug?) and the rest are pretty obvious power grabs.

As I mentioned previously, you are clearly fixated on the combat application of Command. Life does exist outside of combat.

Personally, in my day to day life, I have found that being prone is definitely not the same thing as not being prone. I still can't believe you are really arguing that being prone is equivalent to standing upright. If you honestly can't think of a situation where the difference matters, you are in no position to be weighing in on whether or not other people are being creative or imaginative.

But, I notice you're not bringing up things like "spin". NPC turns around once and ends turn. How is this different than "Halt"?

Actually, I provided three possible uses for spin, all of which are completely different to "halt".

Spin: maybe you want them distracted, or to attract attention, or for their skirt to rise up so you can see what shoes they're wearing.

 

[mellored]

Actually, I provided three possible uses for spin,

So it's ambitious.

And you didn't count them standing near a wheel, or holding an object that you want to see the other side of.

 

[SableWyvern]

So it's ambitious.

And you didn't count them standing near a wheel, or holding an object that you want to see the other side of.

Round and round and round she goes; where she stops, nobody knows.

 

[Remathilis]

So I was thinking of a way to provide the open ended option of Command that some people want and the finite power limit others want. This is a first draft, so it's clearly not tuned.

Command
(Spell stuff here)

You issue out a one word command to a target, such as Stop, Grovel, Flee, Come or Drop. The target makes a Wisdom save. If the target fails, it attempts to satisfy the command in the safest way possible. If the Command would cause the target to harm itself, the target cannot fulfill the Command, or if the target passes its saving throw, the spell fails.

The target will do one of the following actions on its turn, depending on the Command, as determined by the DM:

• Move its speed towards or away from you.
• Drop to the ground and gain the Prone condition
• Drop whatever it is holding into a space next to it.
• Stand still and take no actions except the dodge action on its turn.
• Engage in conversation with the caster. It will answer questions asked, but is under no compulsion to answer them truthfully.

 

[SkidAce]

Our favorite command was "Sit". After which the cleric would say "Good Boy!".

Really made npcs angry or humiliated for some reason. Lol.

-----

Told an npc trying to buy something we wanted to "complain" one time. That insulted the npc merchant and he told him to get out.

 

[Hussar]

As I mentioned previously, you are clearly fixated on the combat application of Command. Life does exist outside of combat.

Of course I am. That's the point. Using the spell to see what someone's shoes looks like is such a blindingly ridiculous example that it's not even worth considering. Spinning to "distract" them? Umm, exactly how does that work? The NPC moves around then ends their turn. How is that different from "Halt"?

Over and over, you keep trying to use "creative" Commands to make the spell more effective in combat - forcing shape changes, forcing enemies to throw their weapons away instead of dropping them, forcing enemies to take actions that would have lasting effects. The whole point of "defecate" is that it creates a lasting effect. On and on.

It's all about making the spell more effective in combat. All the stuff about "seeing someone's shoes" is so much smoke and mirrors to try to disguise that.

 

[Oofta]

The way the abuse of the command spell in and of themselves don't make someone a cheese weasel. My definition is that it's constantly trying to manipulate and bend (or outright break) the rules of the game to gain benefit beyond their clear intent that makes someone a cheese weasel.

It's a spectrum of course, from people that enjoy commands like "sit" which does basically less than grovel (both from a mechanical perspective and to me RP perspective) to the guy that I played with the wanted to use the Mold Earth cantrip to instantaneously bury people up to their chest in dirt (they were on a city street, not that it matters much) with no save. Maybe it's these guys

Even then, if that's what you and your group find enjoyable, that's fine. I just don't want to DM or play at that table.

 

[DinoInDisguise]

Of course I am. That's the point. Using the spell to see what someone's shoes looks like is such a blindingly ridiculous example that it's not even worth considering. Spinning to "distract" them? Umm, exactly how does that work? The NPC moves around then ends their turn. How is that different from "Halt"?

Over and over, you keep trying to use "creative" Commands to make the spell more effective in combat - forcing shape changes, forcing enemies to throw their weapons away instead of dropping them, forcing enemies to take actions that would have lasting effects. The whole point of "defecate" is that it creates a lasting effect. On and on.

It's all about making the spell more effective in combat. All the stuff about "seeing someone's shoes" is so much smoke and mirrors to try to disguise that.

I think this highlights a difference in perspective, one that might inhibit any chance at agreement.

We can see the signs of this in the first paragraph in lines such as;

Using the spell to see what someone's shoes looks like is such a blindingly ridiculous example

or

Spinning to "distract" them? Umm, exactly how does that work?

The relevant definition of dismissal is; "the act of treating something as unworthy of serious consideration; rejection." I think both are obviously examples of that. And I think you say these things, because of the difference in perspective. I'm not implying malice or anything here, just pointing out the tone.

I've seen similar outside of combat uses before. So they do happen. They may not in all groups, but they do in some. So I don't know that the outright dismissal is really warranted. And I don't know that it lends itself to the discussion having a meaningful ending.

If we simply distill things down to combat uses only, the system needs a lot of changes, and there will be many fewer players as a result.

 

[Lanefan]

Whereas I cannot see how you cannot see the difference.

I have to say, the hair you seem to be splitting is so fine I can't see it either.

There's no real difference between coming up with creative Commands and coming up with creative uses for other spells or effects; nor is there any real difference between coming up with creative Commands and coming up with creative ideas for illusions or Suggestion (or Quest if it still exists).

In the end, and as has been the case since 1974, if what's being attempted is batcrap crazy or otherwise out of line it's on the DM to shut it down. It's part of the whole 'referee' gig, and - as is their right - every DM is going to draw a different line.

At the same time, open-ended effects also give the DM the freedom to not shut it down when a player comes up with something unexpected-creative-fun that the table enjoys and that doesn't break the game.