D&D 5E Command

[brehobit]

Had someone use command on a ship to order an (armored) captain to "swim". Save was missed and I had him jump in the water. How would you have ruled it. In that situation it was a very powerful application of the spell. And we are expecting a lot of boat-based stuff, so...

 

[Tanaka Chris]

I'm pretty sure swimming in Armor is considered directly harmful though....

 

[Green1]

Well..

1. It's 60 feet range so you can not really do it ship to ship unless you are docked to it or are aboard.

2. Does not work if you ask creature to do something harmful. Man overboard in the middle of the sea can be deadly. Particularly if the crew is too busy to fish someone out.

 

[brehobit]

Reading closely, I need to do it.

 

[Wik]

2. Does not work if you ask creature to do something harmful. Man overboard in the middle of the sea can be deadly. Particularly if the crew is too busy to fish someone out.

You don't even need to be in the middle of the sea. A MOB is always dangerous, and most drowning deaths occur within sight of land.

Even if you wear normal clothes, you'll be in trouble of drowning. And good luck swimming - even many "strong" swimmers can't make it ashore in a MOB situation. Having done a few drills myself, wearing full survival gear, swimming even a hundred feet in any sort of ocean current is surprisingly difficult.

So yeah, I'd assume that this sort of command would be "Directly Harmful". Possibly even "Suicidal".

 

[Sunseeker]

My first question is: how badly did the target fail?

"Jump overboard" when obviously you'd going to die if you do so should be run the same as if the player had just commanded the target to "kill yourself". It isn't "stay right here" while the caster ties the person to the mast, or "you drink first" when the player suspects of bring given a poisoned drink.

Generally speaking, it's not impossible to Command a person to kill themselves, such commands are just easier to fight since they are so against what you want to do.

So I'll go back to my original question: How badly did the target fail? By a couple of points? I would have made him move towards the edge of the boat, perhaps close enough to be pushed in with his guard down, but it would have been an agonizing step every inch closer. Did the target roll a natural 1? Then I wouldn't fret about the outcome since the possibility of an adjusted DC allowing him to win would be out of the question.

Sailors tend to be stupid about everything except the ocean. So the person issuing the Command is basically issuing their order against the NPCs best skill (Sailing) in which the NPC is proficient. I would give such a target a higher bonus to succeed due to their knowledge and experience on the seas.

 

[Green1]

My first question is: how badly did the target fail?

"Jump overboard" when obviously you'd going to die if you do so should be run the same as if the player had just commanded the target to "kill yourself". It isn't "stay right here" while the caster ties the person to the mast, or "you drink first" when the player suspects of bring given a poisoned drink.

Generally speaking, it's not impossible to Command a person to kill themselves, such commands are just easier to fight since they are so against what you want to do.

So I'll go back to my original question: How badly did the target fail? By a couple of points? I would have made him move towards the edge of the boat, perhaps close enough to be pushed in with his guard down, but it would have been an agonizing step every inch closer. Did the target roll a natural 1? Then I wouldn't fret about the outcome since the possibility of an adjusted DC allowing him to win would be out of the question.

Sailors tend to be stupid about everything except the ocean. So the person issuing the Command is basically issuing their order against the NPCs best skill (Sailing) in which the NPC is proficient. I would give such a target a higher bonus to succeed due to their knowledge and experience on the seas.

Maybe if the DM uses botch rules.

But yeah, you are right. Even the sailor mooks would know it's not wise to be overboard. Fatigue levels and constant checks suck even if you do have pluses. And, the ship could move away.

As DM I would rule it fails. But that is not to say it could not be useful. You could command the captain to flee the quarterdeck and the ship would be unpiloted till someone else stepped up.

Maybe there could be a higher level "Walk the Plank" spell that is a future water/ sailing domain spell one day.

 

[KarinsDad]

My first question is: how badly did the target fail?

"Jump overboard" when obviously you'd going to die if you do so should be run the same as if the player had just commanded the target to "kill yourself". It isn't "stay right here" while the caster ties the person to the mast, or "you drink first" when the player suspects of bring given a poisoned drink.

Generally speaking, it's not impossible to Command a person to kill themselves, such commands are just easier to fight since they are so against what you want to do.

So I'll go back to my original question: How badly did the target fail? By a couple of points? I would have made him move towards the edge of the boat, perhaps close enough to be pushed in with his guard down, but it would have been an agonizing step every inch closer. Did the target roll a natural 1? Then I wouldn't fret about the outcome since the possibility of an adjusted DC allowing him to win would be out of the question.

What does it matter? In 5E, a failure is a failure on a save. Why throw in "how much someone missed the save by" house rules?

That way leads to madness for a lot of other spells.


I'm not sure why there is debate on this. Swimming in armor is generally considered deadly, so unless the target was an expert swimmer in armor (or could breathe underwater), this would be an action directly harmful to the target and he would auto-save.

 

[Coredump]

What does it matter? In 5E, a failure is a failure on a save. Why throw in "how much someone missed the save by" house rules?

That way leads to madness for a lot of other spells.

Can you provide a rule for that assertion?
There is nothing in the rules that dictates that every failure is just like every other failure, nor every success just like every other success.
In fact, there are examples where rolling particularly high or low *does* have different effects. There are more examples in the WotC adventures where they do this.

 

[KarinsDad]

Can you provide a rule for that assertion?

Ok.

3. Compare the total to a target number. If the total equals or exceeds the target number, the ability check, attack roll, or saving throw is a success. Otherwise, it’s a failure.

Nothing in the rules about partial failures TMK.

There is nothing in the rules that dictates that every failure is just like every other failure, nor every success just like every other success.
In fact, there are examples where rolling particularly high or low *does* have different effects. There are more examples in the WotC adventures where they do this.

Feel free to quote these examples of yours.

While it is true that the effects of saves can vary, the effect itself indicates what happens on success or failure. Since the effect indicates this, yes, it is possible that a given effect could have a partial success or a partial failure. The Command spell does not have that.

The result of a successful or failed saving throw is also detailed in the effect that allows the save.