Comments and questions on 3.5 from a Newbie

[Silveras]

A thousand feet is NOTHING in the woods. In a crowded city, the noise would be drowned out by the endless traffic, people, and machinery, but in the woods, a cracking branch, brush raking across leather, a muffled grunt, can carry a long, long, way. Not to mention the clanking of armor.

The accuracy with which the D&D rules model parts of the real world has always been a topic of debate (and deservedly so). For the purposes of learning the rules, though, I think we are all best served by sticking to what they say, even when it flies in the face of personal experience.

 

[MichaelH]

Finalized Claire and Narrin (I hope? Correct? (sighs))

Mostly correct. There are a few problems with Narrin. I will post both in the new stat block format in the DMG2 and Dungeon magazine.

Claire, cute elven mage CR 5
Female high elf wizard 5
NG Medium humanoid (elf)
Init +7; Senses Low-light vision; Listen +2, Spot +2
Languages Common, elven, draconic, orc, sylvan, gnoll, goblinoid, gnome
______________________________________________________________________________
AC 13, touch 13, flat-footed 10
HP 24 (5 HD)
Immune sleep spells and effects
Fort +3, Ref +4, Will +4; +2 against Enchantment spells and effects
______________________________________________________________________________
Spd 30 ft.
Melee longsword +2 (1d8/19-20) or dagger +2 (1d4/19-20)
Ranged longbow +5 (1d8/x3) or dagger +5 (1d4/19-20)
Base Atk +2; Grp +2
Special Actions spells
Spells Prepared (CL 5th, +2 touch, +5 ranged touch)
3 – Fireball (DC 16), Hold Person (DC 16)
2 – Protection from Arrows, Melf’s Acid Arrow, Scorching Ray
1 – Mage Armor, Shocking Grasp x2, Magic Missile
0 – Acid Splash, Light, Disrupt Undead, Read Magic
Deity Sehanine Moonbow
______________________________________________________________________________
Abilities Str 10, Dex 17, Con 15, Int 16, Wis 11, Cha 13
SQ Elf traits
Feats Skill Focus (concentration), Improved Initiative, Scribe Scroll, Enlarge Spell
Skills Concentration +13, Knowledge (arcana) +7, Listen +2, Search +8, Spellcraft +11, Spot +2



and.....


Narrin CR 5
Male human fighter 5
N Medium humanoid (human)
Init +2; Senses normal vision; Listen +0, Spot +4
Languages Common plus one
______________________________________________________________________________
AC 21, touch 11, flat-footed 20
HP 42 (5 HD)
Fort +6, Ref +3, Will +1
______________________________________________________________________________
Spd 20 ft.
Melee heavy pick +10 (1d6+6/x4) or light pick +9 (1d4+4/x4) or longsword +9 (1d8+4/19-20)
Ranged throwing axe +7 (1d6+4) or composite longbow (Str +4) +7 (1d8+4/x3)
Base Atk +5; Grp +9
Atk Options power attack, two weapon fighting
Deity Tempus
______________________________________________________________________________
Abilities Str 18, Dex 15, Con 15, Int 13, Wis 11, Cha 10
Feats Improved Unarmed Strike, Power Attack, Weapon Focus (heavy pick), Weapon Specialization (heavy pick), Two Weapon Fighting, Point Blank Shot
Skills Climb +4, Jump +4, Spot +4, Swim -4
Possessions Full plate armor, heavy steel shield

 

[painandgreed]

A thousand feet is NOTHING in the woods. In a crowded city, the noise would be drowned out by the endless traffic, people, and machinery, but in the woods, a cracking branch, brush raking across leather, a muffled grunt, can carry a long, long, way. Not to mention the clanking of armor.

That's not my experience when in the woods doing WW2 re-enactment. Gunshots carry well but everything else including detecting vehicles moving is pretty much limited to under 100 yards unless looking across and open field at somebody not trying to hide.

 

[MichaelH]

Finalized Claire and Narrin (I hope? Correct? (sighs))

Claire
Cute Elven Mage (Wizard 5)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Medium Humanoid (Elf)
Hit Dice: 5d4+10 (24 hp)
Initiative: +7
Speed: Move 30 feet (6 squares)
Armor Class: 13 (+3 Dex), 13 touch, 10 flat-footed
Base Attack/Grapple: +2/+2
Attack: Longsword +2 (1d8 19-20*2), longbow +5 (1d8 20*3, 100 ft), dagger +2 (1-4 19-20*2, 10 ft)
Space/Reach: 5 feet/5 feet
Special Attacks: Spells
Special Qualities: Elf traits, Lowlight vision
Saves: Fort +3, Ref +4, Will +4
Abilities: Str 10, Dex 17, Con 15, Int 16, Wis 11, Cha 13
Skills: Concentration +13 (8 ranks), Knowledge Arcana +7 (4 ranks), Listen +2, Search +8 (3 ranks), Spellcraft +11 (8 ranks), Spot +5 (3 ranks)
Feats: Skill Focus (Concentration), Improved Initiative, Scribe Scroll, Enlarge Spell.
Alignment: Neutral Good
Diety: Reveres Sehanine Moonbow, other Seldarine deities

120 years of age, 4 feet 6 inches tall, 80 pounds, long raven black hair (let down), blue eyes, milky skin.
Languages: Common, Elven, Draconian, Gnoll, Gnome, Goblin, Orc, and Sylvan

Spell DC modifier: 13 + spell level
Spells per day: 0/4, 1/4, 2/3, 3/2
Spells readied:
0/Light, Acid Splash, Disrupt Undead
1/Mage Armor, Shocking Grasp*2, Magic Missile
2/Protection from Arrows, Melf's Acid Arrow, Scorching Ray
3/Fireball, Hold Person.

Claire has 3 too many languages, perhaps four if she started with a 15 Int.

She only has 26 skill points but should have 32, unless you wanted those extra 6 skill points for those 3 extra languages. If so, then your skills and languages are correct here, unless she started with a 15 Int.

Narrin
Human male (Fighter 5)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Medium Humanoid (Human)
Hit Dice: 5d10+10 (42 hp)
Initiative: +1
Speed: Move 20 feet (4 squares)
Armor Class: 22 (+2 Dex, +8 Armor, +2 Shield), 12 touch, 20 flat-footed
Base Attack/Grapple: +5/+9
Attack: Heavy pick +11 (1d6+5 20*4), long sword + 9 (1-8+4, 19-20*2), light pick + 9 (1-4 20*4), throwing axe (1-6+4 20*2, 10 ft), or heavy composite bow +9 (1-8+4 19-20*2, 110 feet)
Space/Reach: 5 feet/5 feet
Special Attacks: None
Saves: Fort +6, Ref +3, Will +1
Abilities: Str 18, Dex 15, Con 15, Int 13, Wis 11, Cha 10.

Skills: Climb 4 ranks (Str +4), Jump 4 ranks (Str +4), Swim 8 ranks (Str +4), Spot 4 ranks (8 points spent)
Feats: Improved Unarmed Strike, Power Attack, Weapon Focus (Heavy Pick), Weapon Specialization (Heavy pick), Two Weapon Proficiency, Point Blank Shot
Alignment: Neutral
Diety: Reveres Tempus

Initiative should be +2 due to his 15 Dex.

AC is 21 because the max dex to AC for full plate armor is +1. Touch AC should be 11.

Heavy pick should only be +10 to hit (+5 base attack, +4 Str, +1 weapon focus). The damage should be 1d6+6 (+4 Str, 2 weapon specialization).

The composite longbow (Str +4) should be +7 to hit (+5 base attack, +2 Dex).

He only has 24 skill points but should have 32.

His armor check penalty is -8 to his Climb and Jump skills and -16 to his Swim skill.

 

[kenobi65]

Claire has 3 too many languages, perhaps four if she started with a 15 Int.

Yup. You don't automatically get all the languages listed as "bonus" languages for your race (which may be where Edena went wrong here). You get the "automatic" languages, and, for each point of your Int bonus at character creation, you get to pick another language from your race's "bonus language" list. You can then spend skill points to learn additional languages.

 

[Edena_of_Neith]

Thanks, Michael. When you reposted the characters in DMG2 Format, did you correct the mistakes?

Could you repost the characters in the DMG2 Format, with the mistakes corrected? Please? A personal request from Yours Truly.

-

Claire starts with 3 extra languages, using the 6 skill points. She has Draconic, Sylvan, and Gnomish.

If Narrin is 6 skill points short, give him 3 ranks in Search.

Narrin is 25, 6 feet 5, weighs 250 pounds, is obviously very muscular, has long black hair, and grey eyes. He wears his thick black beard long, with a stylized mustache. His brows are bushy.

Claire has the large, almond shaped eyes of the high elves, but with only a little slant. Her chin is narrower than a human's, but not dramatically so. Her face is pleasant and friendly, with a soft nose and cherubic ears (they are pointed, but do not stick up to the top of her head! They are narrower than a human's ears, and slightly longer.
Claire might be the younger version of the elf on page 220 of the DMG. Might be. In elven terms, she's around the human equivalent of 18.

-

Ok ...

Narrin is walking through the woods towards the clearing.
Claire casts her Shocking Grasp spell, and holds it.
In an opposed skill check of Listen versus Hide, Narrin doesn't have Listen and Claire doesn't have Hide, so it falls back on their relevant stats.
Narrin rolls a 19, plus no bonus for his Wisdom (Wisdom 11.) Claire rolls an 8, modified to an 11 for her Dexterity (Dexterity 17.)
Narrin wins the opposed skill check.

Realizing that the young woman down there is casting a spell, and that it might well be hostile, Narrin draws his bow and nocks an arrow to it, before continuing.
Thus, when Narrin enters the clearing (which is 50 feet across) he is ready for combat.

Narrin then looks around for the hiding girl. Opposed skill checks again: Spot versus Hide. Narrin rolls high again, a 15. No modifiers. Claire rolls low again, a 10, modified to a 13.
Narrin spots Claire hiding behind a tree.
Narrin decides, for good or for bad, that this young woman should be dealt with forcibly.

Narrin calls for the girl to come out. Running will do no good, for his bow is trained on her, says he. There is nowhere to run anyways, says he. If the girl will not come out, Narrin says, he will be required to drag her out.
Claire reacts hostilely to this statements, and comes out. The distance between the two closes to 40 feet.
Claire in no uncertain terms warns the stranger to back off, to leave her be. She is seeking a healer, and will not be delayed.
Narrin is irritated mightily by this attitude. He always thought elves were stuck up, and now this little girl is telling him off. He informs her he will take her back to his home, by force as a prisoner if need be, or she can come willingly. Then, says he, he will discuss the healer.
Claire regards Narrin coldly, and informs him that he will do no such thing.
Narrin gestures to his huge, readied bow, arrow nocked, and smirks at the girl. He then asks her politely what a mage, alone and without help, is going to do against him - a fighter - in toe to toe combat?
Claire quietly informs him that he will die. Pure and simple.
Narrin has had enough of this backtack from this little girl. He fires a warning shot over her head, then reloads.
Claire, face cold and set, advances on him, raising her hands. She informs him that he had his chance, but now his only choice is to surrender, or die.
Narrin, aims his bow directly at Claire. An arrow will change her outlook, says he. Thinking about it, he figures he can get healing later for the prisoner he intends to make of her. After her behavior, he will enjoy breaking her elvish attitude with short rations and little water, confined out in the cold night with the insects and the rodents, and little sympathy and much scorn from him.
Narrin takes aim with his bow, and ...

The combat begins.

(Heading for bed. Be back later!)

 

[MichaelH]

Thanks, Michael. When you reposted the characters in DMG2 Format, did you correct the mistakes?

Could you repost the characters in the DMG2 Format, with the mistakes corrected? Please? A personal request from Yours Truly.

-

Claire starts with 3 extra languages, using the 6 skill points. She has Draconic, Sylvan, and Gnomish.

If Narrin is 6 skill points short, give him 3 ranks in Search.

Yes, the mistakes were corrected in the new stat block posts.

Claire's skill points are good as you had them, then. My post has the extra points spent. I will correct that.

Edit: Actually, I just noticed that Claire has two cross-class skills with ranks (Search and Spot). So with the 6 skill points used for languages, you have 6 too many skill points. I dropped the 3 ranks in Spot (6 skill points) in my stat block for Claire to correct this.

Narrin actually is short by 8 skill points. I maxed his his four skills with 8 skill points each, resulting in 8 ranks in Climb, Jump, and Swim, and 4 ranks in Spot.

 

[Silveras]

In an opposed skill check of Listen versus Hide, Narrin doesn't have Listen and Claire doesn't have Hide, so it falls back on their relevant stats.

Actually, many skills (including Hide, Spot, Listen, and Move Silently) can be used untrained. They follow the usual rules, and receive the same modifiers, it is just that the user has 0 ranks.

So Claire receives +5 to her Hide check for the undergrowth.

Narrin receives -1 per 5 feet of distance to his Listen check for the undergrowth. The DC for hearing Claire casting is base 0, -1 per 5 feet of distance. If he starts 100 feet away, he can't hear her.

You use Spot to detect someone Hiding.. not Listen. Listen has nothing to do with Hide. Hide/Spot and Move Silently/Listen are opposing pairs.

Claire's Hide check is thus 18 (10 + 3 for Dex + 5 for circumstances in the forest). Narrin's 15 does not come close to beating then. In fact, as Narrin is 50 feet away when he enters the clearing, he fails to see her, as his net check is a 10 (-1 penalty per 10 feet of distance).

Also, for Narrin to realize what Claire is doing, he would have to at least beat the Listen DC by 10 (to make out the words). Identifying that sound alone as a spell, specifically, is not covered (to my knowledge) in the rules. Another skill check of some kind (Knowledge (Arcana) or Spellcraft) is most likely required to tell that it is not just spoken words in a foreign language.

 

[monboesen]

Thanks Edena, but it's not really my template. It seems to be a bastardized version of the DMG2 one.

Another, IMO, helpful rule in 3ed is the "take 10" one. In a situation like the one you are describing I would most often use that. So both characters take 10 on their skills until they are very close or to stressed out to do so. When playing it saves you a lot of rolls (and often the players a lot of grief from random high or low rolls) and time.

Claires Listen check will then be 12 (10+2) and Narrins makes a lot of noice (DC 0 - 8 armor check penalty). Thats a 12 vs DC -8. In a forest you have a penalty to listen checks of -2/10 ft. So Claire should be able to hear Narrin at a 100 ft. distance

Narrin would hear her talking (or casting a spell) from a distance of 50 ft. Because Narrins listen check is 10 (10+0) vs. DC 0 + 2/10 ft distance. He would not be able to make out the actual words or language spoken. So if Claire casts her spell as soon as she hears the rattling armor and horse Narrin will not hear any spellcasting (he is to far away = more than 50 ft.)

Claires hide modifier of +8 (+3 dex, +5 circumstance) and Narrins Spot modifer of +4 (4 ranks) means that he will not be able to spot her. At least not without some kind of serious effort to search the clearing. As far as his senses can tell, he will be looking at an empty and silent clearing once he gets there.

In fact Claire would have a decent chance of sneaking away while Narrin tries to find her (making a Spot check each round hoping to roll high or taking twenty by using 20 rounds). This is why you want to be a Ranger (with Spot and Listen as class skill) when looking for enemies in a forest.

*Not suprisingly Hide, Move silent, Spot and Listen are among the most used and important skills in the game.

 

[Storm Raven]

Ok, something's wrong here.
Most people can look down the road, and see something human sized (especially if it is moving) 3,000 feet away. It won't be large, but they'll see it.

Yes, they can. If they know what direction to look and spend a lot of time looking in that one area. Even if you Take 20, you aren't concentrating on everything around you.

So it's not DC 300, for the Spot Check. In the case above, it'd be DC 5 (unless the viewer was nearsighted, as Yours Truly once was, obviously.)

DC 300 is about right for 3,000 feet.

So, anyone? Narrin is trying to Spot Claire. Claire is just generally looking for anything dangerous (but the only dangerous thing is Narrin, hiding up in the trees on that hillock, more than 100 feet up, 3,000 feet away. There is a direct line of sight between them, by a trick of the foliage of the forest. Claire looks at the hillock longer, since it is obvious to her a danger is more likely to be there.)

What would they need for their Spot rolls?

I gave you the by the book answer: to Spot her, not hiding would be DC 300. To Spot him, hiding, would be the result of his Hide check +300.