Comments and questions on 3.5 from a Newbie

[kenobi65]

The pictures of the weapons in the PHB on pages 115 and on: are those squares meant to represent 1 foot x 1 foot, with the weapon's actual size thus denoted?

If so, it's not exact, nor is it consistent.

One-Handed Weapons: Used one-handed, may be used in either hand. Strength bonus to damage if used in Primary Hand, 1/2 Strength bonus if used in Secondary Hand, 1 1/2 x Strength Bonus if used in both hands. (QUESTION: Again, what about Strength Bonus to Attack Rolls?)

BeauNiddle's hit it, but the rule is:
The (1/2 Str for off hand) / (full Str for primary hand) / (1 1/2 Str for two hands) rule is a modifier to damage rolls only. You always get your full Str bonus on attack rolls with melee weapons, just as you always get your full Dex bonus on attack rolls with ranged weapons.

 

[Lonely Tylenol]

(With what crude knowledge of 3.5 Yours Truly has, he goes where No Gamer Was Meant to Go Before.)



1 DM, 6 players, all newbies to 3.5.
No miniatures or grid maps (or maps of any kind) being used.
Standard dice, character sheets, pepsi, books on table.
Players argumentative, players only half understand rules, DM only half understands rules.

In Game Combat: 20 orcs break down door and charge party.
*snip*

A few weeks ago someone posted a similar description of a hypothetical 3.x combat full of confusion and weirdness. Then, someone else posted a great description of 1e combat, with the indoor/outdoor distance changes, the arbitrary rulings by the DM on who was standing where for fireballing, the madness of THAC0, etc. I wish I had bookmarked it to repost every time someone mocks up a 3.x combat to try to show how confusing it is. I played D&D. I played AD&D 1st ed. and AD&D 2nd ed. I play 3rd ed. because it's a lot freakin' easier. I used to have an encyclopaedic knowledge of 2nd ed. (like unto Brian from KotDT) I had to, because there was so much to remember. Now everything I have to remember actually fits on my DM's screen.

 

[Edena_of_Neith]

Hey, thanks everyone for the help. And BeauNiddle, thanks for the commentary last night, too.
I am working on the combat rules right now.

I wasn't making fun of 3rd edition in my example. Nor was I attempting to depict a serious combat.
I was being darkly humorous, depicting a Knights of the Dinner Table type situation where nobody had really tried to learn the 3rd edition rules.

 

[Flexor the Mighty!]

Was THAC0 really that confusing? We didn't use it in 1e and I skipped 2e so maybe I'm not remembering right. But if for example you have THAC0 of 13 and you just subtract the AC score from that, ie AC 10 is hit on 3 and a -5 is hit on a 18. Or am I mis-remembering THAC0?

 

[MerricB]

Was THAC0 really that confusing? We didn't use it in 1e and I skipped 2e so maybe I'm not remembering right. But if for example you have THAC0 of 13 and you just subtract the AC score from that, ie AC 10 is hit on 3 and a -5 is hit on a 18. Or am I mis-remembering THAC0?

No. It seemed to make a lot of sense.

The problems came from a few things, primarily that subtraction is *much* harder than addition, especially when negative numbers come into it. A THAC0 of 9 attacking AC -3? Hmm.

I had one player that I had to explain THAC0 to *every* time we played.

There's also a problem when the DM likes to hide the AC (as I do). What AC do you hit? is the question asked in those cases. If I have a THAC0 of 12 and roll a 15, what AC do I hit? How about a 9?

Cheers!

 

[Edena_of_Neith]

(chuckles)

I love it. Touch spell attacks. And RANGED touch spell attacks ...

Opponent in plate armor with heavy shield: Don't even THINK you can hit me through my armor, girl.
Cute elven wizard: (fires ray spell, kills said opponent) Think again.

Other Opponent, also in plate armor and with heavy shield: I'm getting out of here! (starts running)
Cute elven wizard: (chases him down because she's not in armor and can run faster, touches him with a touch spell, kills him.) Poor metal can, couldn't get away.

 

[MerricB]

Hey, thanks everyone for the help. And BeauNiddle, thanks for the commentary last night, too.
I am working on the combat rules right now.

I wasn't making fun of 3rd edition in my example. Nor was I attempting to depict a serious combat.
I was being darkly humorous, depicting a Knights of the Dinner Table type situation where nobody had really tried to learn the 3rd edition rules.

That's what I thought, and I thought you'd also benefit from a recap of how I run D&D 3.5e combats.

I started playing D&D close to 23 years ago. I've played 3e since it came out, and 3.5e likewise. In that time, only in the past two years have I regularly started to use miniatures, and even then for only half the combats.

(Why do I now use miniatures? This is why!)

I've heard some people complain about how *slow* 3e combat is, but it's never really been so for me. I suppose at the highest levels (16+) it might get slower, but not yet.

Cheers!

 

[MerricB]

(chuckles)

I love it. Touch spell attacks. And RANGED touch spell attacks ...

Opponent in plate armor with heavy shield: Don't even THINK you can hit me through my armor, girl.
Cute elven wizard: (fires ray spell, kills said opponent) Think again.

Other Opponent, also in plate armor and with heavy shield: I'm getting out of here! (starts running)
Cute elven wizard: (chases him down because she's not in armor and can run faster, touches him with a touch spell, kills him.) Poor metal can, couldn't get away.

Yep. It's a great innovation in 3e.

It caused a few balance issues as well. Harm became the poster boy for the problems. If you recall 1e/2e harm, it reduced the recipient to 1d4 hp, regardless of how many hp they had. That's also how it worked in 3e, but the touch attack was so much easier to get off (and with the increased hp in 3e as well), that it became a "you die" spell.

That's why harm got changed in 3.5e to 10 damage/level of cleric (max 150), and a save allowed for half that. Touch attacks are great, but you have to keep balance issues in mind.

On the other side of that, the Incarnate (a class in Magic of Incarnum) can have at 1st level a acidic ranged touch attack that deals 3d6 acid damage. They can use it every round. Sounds great, doesn't it?

However, ranged touch attacks still have to deal with cover (+4 AC) and if the target is in melee (+4 AC). At that point, it becomes significantly more difficult to hit. I DMed such a character a fortnight ago, and he had real difficulties in hitting anything.

There's one change worth noting in 3e: In 1e/2e, when you fired into melee, you randomly selected which target in the melee you hit. In 3e, you select your target as a matter of course, but take a +4 AC penalty for it being in melee. (I've found this speeds things up significantly). Cover penalties may also apply.

If you take the Precise Shot feat, then that penalty no longer applies. That's one of the features of 3e: many combat manuevers have penalties that apply to them, and a set of feats that remove these penalties. Another example would be attacking someone with your bare hands. That provokes an attack of opportunity from them. However, if you take Improved Unarmed Strike, that penalty is removed: you no longer provoke the AoO. (Monks have IUS for free, of course!)

Cheers!

 

[Edena_of_Neith]

The list of actions that provoke Attacks of Opportunity (page 141) list a lot of Do Not Dos in combat. Even in 1E and 2E, the DMs I played under sometimes allowed free attacks against foes that pulled some of these stunts.

Attack (melee) : A good idea, when someone's trying to kill you, to try to kill them.
Attack (ranged) : I fire my bow at the guy 5 feet away. Uh huh. Right ... and you're Legolas, aren't you?
Attack (unarmed) : If you have Improved Unarmed Strike, great. You know how to actually brawl. If you don't have that Feat, what are you doing? You're going to kick at that guy with the big sword ready? Good luck.
Activate a magic item, other than potion or oil: They strengthened this action in 3rd Edition.
Aid another: If you insist on kneeling down to save a comrade, that ogre standing over you is going to whap you. But that's better than your comrade dying, if you aren't killed ...
Bull rush: Still puzzling over this one.
Cast a spell (1 standard action casting time) : This is why spellcasters must be protected by the fighters! Sometimes the fighters forget to do this, and ...
Concentrate to maintain an active spell: This action has been strengthened in 3rd Edition. QUESTION: What, if anything, else can the mage do while concentrating?
Dismiss a spell: Obvious, this one.
Draw a hidden weapon: Still puzzling over this one.
Drink a potion or apply oil: Yeah, right. I drink my potion while ogre there is hewing at me. LOL.
Escape a grapple: Still puzzling that out. I intend an entire post on Grapple.
Feint: Still puzzling that out. A new action, it seems. Never heard of feinting in 2E or 1E.
Light torch: Common thing people do. Best to do it behind the protection of fighters ...
Lower spell resistance: Hmmm ... that's something you do to yourself. Similar to dismissing a spell ...
Make a dying friend stable: Obvious. Of course, if you're killed helping your friend, you don't help your friend. Decisions, decisions.
Overrun: Still puzzling this one out.
Read a scroll: For some reason, some mages think they can do this in combat without being attacked. I never understand that thinking.
Ready: In 2E, we had a version of this action. But they've formalized it here.
Sunder a weapon (attack) : Yes, he gets an AOO. But if you sunder his weapon, he's in real trouble.
Sunder an object worn/carried: Yes, he gets an AOO. But you can mess him up really bad, if you sunder something like a Girdle of Strength (yeah, I know, only + 5 in 3rd Edition, but still ...)
Sunder an object lying on the ground: No AOO? I'd think they'd get one. Hmmm ...
Total defense: Obvious.
Turn or Rebuke Undead: They've strengthened this in 3rd Edition, since it was a question mark in 2E whether the foe got a free attack.
Use extraordinary ability: Extraordinary ability is a new classification in 3rd Edition. Hmmm ...
Use skill that takes 1 action: (I'm assuming standard or full round action?) Hmmm ... it seems to me circumstances would vary with this one, but ok, they always get AOOs ...
Use Spell-like ability: Ok, they get AOOs here. So why not with supernatural and extraordinary abilities? Spell-like abilities must take more time and concentration, while supernatural and extraordinary abilities come without thinking about it, instantaneously. My guess.
Use supernatural ability: As above. New classification in 3rd Edition.

Move: Turning your back on a foe was always a bad idea, and in 1E and 2E they got free attacks on you too. Now it's worse, since every threatened square you move through provokes an AOO from a new opponent (fortunate, that each opponent only gets 1 AOO against you for movement. Otherwise, as you passed through the 3 hexes threatened by an orc, he's WHACK, WHACK, WHACK, on you.)
Control a frightened mount: Obvious.
Direct or redirect an active spell: Strengthening of this action from 2E.
Draw a weapon:

Did you know that, back in 1E, some of my DMs got so confused they ruled it took an entire round to draw a weapon?
A round was one minute. Picture that. (Fighter: UH ... I'm PULLING on it! ... I'll get it out one day ... it'll come out of the sheath any second now ... NUTS, it seems to be stuck ... UMMM I think it's out 5 inches now ... any day now I'll have that long sword out, yes sir ...)

Load a hand crossbow or light crossbow: Crossbows are a pain in the butt to use!
Open or close a door: Ok, they don't get AOO. But they might get Surprise. (Where's Lidda when you need her?)
Mount a horse or dismount: This one surprises me, that no AOO results. The cavalier will love this rule.
Pick up an item: I bend down and pick up my torch. Uh huh. All while the ogre is raising it's club to smash your head in ...
Sheath a weapon: This one surprises me, that they are allowed an AOO.
Stand up from prone: Obvious. (Which makes Trip really nice, eh?)
Ready or loose a shield: Hmmm ... ok.
Retrieve a stored item: I get out my flask of greek fire, rummaging through my backpack behind it. I pay no further attention to that ogre with the spiked club about to brain me!

 

[Edena_of_Neith]

Full attack: Obvious.
Charge: Brings you into combat, as per 2E.
Deliver Coup de grace: Roughly the same as in 2E. Someone's always going to defend their helpless friend (orcs will defend their friends, right? )
Escape from a Net: You're out of luck, if caught in a net.
Extinguish flames: I suppose they don't get an AOO because they don't wish to ignite also?
Light a torch: Obvious
Load a heavy or repeating crossbow: Dealing with a heavy crossbow has always been VERY difficult.
Lock or unlock weapon in locked gauntlet: Obvious
Prepare to throw splash weapons: That's right, you DON'T get to ready burning oil in the middle of combat, while none of your foes get to do anything about it.
Run: Well, as I said above, big bad fighter in plate armor and shield runs from cute elven mage ... except he doesn't, because she gets AOO and kills him right then, rather than later. She doesn't need to run him down then!
Use skill that takes 1 round: Obvious.
Use touch spell on up to six friends: Obvious.
Withdraw: The tactical withdraw. In 2E, we called it retreating while facing the opponent (of course, the opponent could always pursue.)

Casting a Quickened spell: This is a MASSIVE strengthening of high level wizards (but not low level wizards, who can't use Quickened spells generally.)
Cease concentration on a spell: Obvious.
Drop an item: Obvious.
Drop to the floor: Not so obvious. No AOO when your foe is right in front of you, and you drop to the floor?
Prepare spell components to cast a spell: This represents a MASSIVE strengthening of the mage IF the DM is a stickler for realism and spell components (and some are.)
Speak: Ok ...

Delay: Studying this one ...
5-foot step: Obvious. A very slow move, while combat ready.

Disarm: Studying this one. There were no rules for disarm that I remember from earlier editions.
Grapple: Studying this one. The grapple rules I couldn't understand in 1E (nobody could), and in 2E they were still pretty complicated.
Trip an opponent: Studying this one. There were no rules I remember for tripping in 1E or 2E.
Use Feat: Studying Feats. I notice Feats allow you to Disarm, Grapple, and Trip without provoking an AOO. How nice that is!

Now, if only I could memorize the entire list on page 141, I'd be set.

EDIT: Harm is still a killer spell. 10 points per level, right? But the cleric needs to be around 10th level to cast it: 100 hit points of damage! And I saw that Greater Harm that does up to 250. Same rule still applies: You mess with high level clerics, you die.

EDIT: And I hear there is a Feat that allows you to make Touch Attack spells into Ranged Touch attack spells. So now, the high level cleric can hit distant targets with Harm, and they get no armor or shield bonus against it. As I said: You mess with high level clerics, you die. Bigtime! (grins evilly)