Comments and questions on 3.5 from a Newbie

[kenobi65]

So they both enter your Threatened Squares, then depart them. Departing them triggers your AOO. You may make one AOO against each of them.

If you've got them newfangled Combat Reflexes.

 

[Storm Raven]

Both of you immediately get AOO against the other, as you leave each other's Threatened Squares.

Only one of you would get an AoO, your movement occurs on your action, his movement on his.

You move around the corner, backing away from the 3 orcs blitzing away at you (you're killing them fast: there were 7 orcs blitzing at you last round.) But around the corner are 2 more orcs, busy fighting Merry.
Merry and his combat moves past you into another part of the room, while your combat continues to backpedal towards where Legolas is shooting orcs down.
But, as this happens:

You get AOO against all of Merry's orcs.
Merry gets AOO against all of your orcs.
Merry's orcs all get AOO against you.
All of your orcs get AOO against Merry.

You do not normally get more than one AoO per round, unless you have the Combat Reflexes feat. I'm not sure what "blitzing" is, combatants don't normally drift about the battlefield in the manner you describe, at least not in 3.0/3.5e combat. Each character moves on his or her own action, and not as a group. Further, what you describe would most likely be modeled as a series of five foot steps on the part of the various combatants, and a five foot step never draws an AoO.

 

[kenobi65]

Edena, I think it comes down to this: you need to actually sit down and play. Or, at least, get someone to actually do some combats with you. At this point, all of these rules are just book l'arnin' to you, and you really need to see how it all translates to actual play.

 

[The_Gneech]

Heh. Far more likely that the fighter says, "Enough of this!" and whales on the cheeky wizard. Only a truly stupid or desperate fighter would flee, knowing that he's opening himself up to additional spell attacks from the wizard.

Generally speaking, wizards that live to see another day have learned that about the dumbest thing they can do is get within melee range of a fighter. Which is why Shocking Grasp doesn't strike me as broken...it forces the wizard to violate that fundamental tenet of arcane-caster survival.

That was exactly what I was thinking. Try this:

Cute Elven Mage (5th level wizard) wins initiative (high Dexterity, Improved Initiative) against the 5th Level Fighter with his full plate armor and large steel shield.
Cute Elven Mage is Casting on the Defensive. Makes DC check of 16, readies Shocking Grasp.
She attempts Touch Attack against Fighter, hits, does 18 points of damage.
5th level fighter decides to run. Takes Double Move, moves 40 feet.
5th level fighter whacks Cute Elven Mage with axe, doing 12 points of damage. Mage has 1 hp left.
Round ends.

Mage casts second Shocking Grasp, holds charge. Mage has 1 hit point. Does she really want to risk that her next spell will drop the fighter before he can get one more attack?

A melee fighter doesn't generally run away, no matter how much of a pounding they're taking, because to do so is just to invite more free attacks on themselves. They're better off to keep attacking in the hopes of winning outright.

-The Gneech

 

[rvalle]

Mage casts second Shocking Grasp, holds charge. Mage has 1 hit point. Does she really want to attempt a Concentration check of DC (10 + damage taken =) 22 to cast another spell? Assuming Concentration +15, she has a 65% chance of success there -- ignoring as a given that she must make another Concentration check of "don't roll a 1" to cast defensively. Or would she rather withdraw as a full-round action to get away from that axe?[/i]

-The Gneech

Ummm... does it work that way? I thought a con check was only needed for damage taken WHILE casting. Either from something that does damage over time (acid/fire), a readied attack or a spell that takes a full round to cast.

rv

 

[Storm Raven]

Ummm... does it work that way? I thought a con check was only needed for damage taken WHILE casting. Either from something that does damage over time (acid/fire), a readied attack or a spell that takes a full round to cast.

I believe he is assuming that the CEM will cast her second shocking grasp spell using the 'Cast Defensively' option, so as to avoid drawing an AoO from the fighter for casting while in a threatened area.

 

[The_Gneech]

Ummm... does it work that way? I thought a con check was only needed for damage taken WHILE casting. Either from something that does damage over time (acid/fire), a readied attack or a spell that takes a full round to cast.

rv

You are correct. I have this recurring problem of applying house rules to board posts. Sorry! Presumably the RAW mainly come into play if the wizard is hit by an AoO or taking continuous damage while casting their spell, but since most of the wizards in games we play have Concentration maxed out, they always cast defensively anyway. We applied the "when you take damage, period" rule in our game because it seemed weird for wizards to be sucking up damage and still standing there casting spells right and left.

-The Gneech

 

[The_Gneech]

I believe he is assuming that the CEM will cast her second shocking grasp spell using the 'Cast Defensively' option, so as to avoid drawing an AoO from the fighter for casting while in a threatened area.

That was the "don't roll a 1" check I was referring to, because the Mage as postulated almost can't miss their check for casting defensively.

Sorry for the confusion.

-The Gneech

 

[DethStryke]

ThoughtfulOwl, that may be a Tidbit, but it makes a BIG difference!

Cute Elven Mage (5th level wizard) wins initiative (high Dexterity, Improved Initiative) against the 5th Level Fighter with his full plate armor and large steel shield.
Cute Elven Mage is Casting on the Defensive. Makes DC check of 16, readies Shocking Grasp.
She attempts Touch Attack against Fighter, hits, does 18 points of damage.
5th level fighter decides to run. Takes Double Move, moves 40 feet.
Round ends.

Mage casts second Shocking Grasp, holds charge. Mage moves 25 feet after running Fighter.
Fighter decides running was bad idea, turns around. Can't take 5 foot step and make Full Attack (mage is 15 feet away), decides to take move action and make one attack. Does so, hits with axe, does 5 with axe + 4 for strength + 3 for enhancement for 12 points. Mage survives attack (she had no constitution bonus to hit points, had 14 hit points at start.)
Mage does not need to make a Concentration Check to Hold a Charge.
Mage delivers Touch Attack against fighter, hits, does another 18 points of damage with Shocking Grasp. Fighter has taken 46 points of damage, is at - 4.
Cute Elven Mage delivers Coup de Grace against downed fighter.

Ok, the move of 25 feet was a tactical move, suggestion a board game.
Yet ...
The elven mage could have appreciated the danger of just running right into the fighter, when he was clearly halting his run and preparing a devastating counterattack. So, she halted, just out of range, taunting him, holding her Shocking Grasp. That would be tactical roleplaying, not tactical wargaming.

What do you think?

While feats are not the main component of the system, for some classes, especially Fighters, they are very important. IMO, they are integral to fighters. In the example you list above, a 5th level fighter has a high probability of having Power Attack. Had he used even 2 of his (5 at that level) available Base Attack Bonus, his last strike would have downed the mage. Many of the people I've played with will take full Power Attacks if they do it at all, which would have laid the mage into the negatives. That's not even considering the offset that Weapon Focus (+1 to hit) and a Masterwork weapon (+1 to hit) gives to balance the power attack (+2 to hit for the -2 of the min power attack needed). Weapon Specialization (+2 dmg) is another option to get the extra two damage instead of power attack. So would be dropping his shield as he advanced and using two hands to increase his strength output 1.5x from +4 to +6.

Also consider that the fighter's attack, as shown, forces the mage to make a Fortitude check for excessive damage ( >50% of her HP) or go unconcious. Though I believe this is an optional rule, if I remember correctly. It is one that is "standard" at the tables I play in though, which is why I can't remember what the book says.

By using the Heal skill in combat, you can assess the relative damage that another PC/NPC has sustained. So at any time the fighter could have checked to see how damaged or in shape (indicating a constitution bonus) the Cute Elven Mage was. This may have a bearing on whether he chose to use Power Attack at all.

The hardest part is remembering what all the skills and feats that you have do and how to stack them to achieve the greatest benefit to every situation.

The Mage, on the other hand, has a huge advantage in ranged options. Keeping things in between to defense against the charge is a key strategy against melee opponents, but in this case one could employ a familiar with the "Deliver Touch Spells" ability to great effect. Perhaps a Weasel that sneaks up on the fighter, or a mouse even! This would allow the mage herself to keep a great distance and still tag anyone with a shocking grasp. In an open field, a owl or falcon with a MUCH greater flight speed could swoop down and still have plenty of chances to smack a touch spell on the hapless fighter.

Edit: Afterthoughts and clear up notes.

 

[Edena_of_Neith]

(smiles ruefully) I can't sit down and play right now. Still searching for a group. Thus, this thread.

Let me try the above again

You are Aragorn. You have Combat Reflexes.
Merry does not have Combat Reflexes.
You are in a fight with 7 orcs. Merry is in a fight with 3 orcs.
None of the orcs have Combat Reflexes, but none of them have yet made an AOO this round.
Initiative: you go, then the orcs go, then Merry goes.

You Full Attack your orcs, killing 2 of them. You step your 5 foot step backwards, towards Merry's fight.
The orcs attack. They all miss you. They also miss Merry. Your orcs move with you. Merry's orcs do not move.
Merry attacks. He has only 1 attack. But he hits, and downs one of his 3 orcs. Merry then foolishly backpedals (he is allowed a move action) 20 feet, right into your combat.
Merry's orcs have taken their action, and cannot move with Merry this round. But they CAN take their AOO against Merry, and they do. Fortunately for Merry, they miss.

Now, your combat and Merry's combat are entwined in one large messy melee.
Next round.

You take another 5 foot step backwards, yelling at Merry to hold his ground (Merry doesn't listen to you, though. Merry is scared of all these orcs attacking him.)
You make another Full Round Attack against your 5 remaining orcs. You kill 3 of them.

It is the orc's turn. They attack you and hit. You take 15 points of damage (minor cuts and bruises.)
They orcs on Merry move 20 feet, reach Merry, and attack him. They miss.
The orcs on you take a 5 foot step to keep with you.

Merry was thinking of attacking one of your orcs. Since the 2 that were on him came up to attack, he attacks them instead. He hits and kills one.
Then Merry, who is frightened, foolishly backpedals another 20 feet.
The remaining 2 orcs on you have not yet taken their AOO. Merry just left their threatened area, so they both make AOO on Merry. And Merry's remaining orc, also gets an AOO on Merry, and takes it. Merry is hit twice, and badly hurt.

You decide you have to save Merry. The one remaining orc on Merry is about to kill him.
You take your move action to move up to that orc (who has not yet had a chance to move and thus pursue Merry.)
Immediately, the surviving two orcs on you gleefully take their AOO on you, one of them hitting (more bruises for you, with your high hit points.)
Then you attack that orc, and kill him. Merry is saved (hopefully.)

It is the orc's turn. Another 2 orcs rush up on Merry from the opposite direction and attack (both miss, fortunately.)
The two orcs you left behind move up to you and attack. They miss.

The combat goes on ...

-

Sam is facing 3 orcs on one side, and 3 orcs on the other side. They are flanking him.
Sam, bangs one of the 3 on one side, killing him. (BANG!)
Sam, moves out from between the orcs, trying to escape this trap. He maneuvers to put himself in front of the second group of 3 orcs.
But in so doing, he moves out of the threatened squares of the remaining 2 orcs of the first group. Both make AOO. Both hit. Sam takes a gash across the forehead.

The orcs now have initiative. The two in the first group decide to attack Pippin. They move, then attack Pippin (missing.)
But the 3 orcs of the second group now attack Sam. All of them miss.

Sam: I think I have the hang of this!

Sam now attacks one of the three orcs of the second group. He hits, and downs one of them. (BANG!)
Then Sam does a reactive Spot check to find Frodo. This takes no time, but Frodo is not within 20 feet. Sam cannot find Frodo. (House Rule for Fog of Battle. It could be 25 feet, 30 feet, or whatever the DM wants.)
So Sam takes a move action Spot Check to find Frodo, DC 10. He sees him over there, 40 feet away, gutting an orc with Sting. Sam is much relieved. (House Rule for Fog of Battle. It could be DC 0, 5, 15, or whatever the DM wants.)

The two orcs on Sam now have initiative. One runs off, going after Frodo.
Sam gets an AOO against that one. He misses. (The orc moves, attacks Frodo, and his blow misses, glancing off of Frodo's mithril shirt.)
The remaining orc attacks Sam. It misses.

Sam charges the orc on Frodo. (Frodo, on his initiative, missed it.)
The remaining orc on Sam gets an AOO on Sam. It takes it, but misses.
Sam moves, attacks, and misses.

Now, the orc on Frodo continues attacking Frodo. It misses.
The orc that was on Sam charges Sam, attacks, and misses.
Two more orcs charge Sam and Frodo. One attacks Sam, one attacks Frodo. Both miss.

It is Legolas' initiative. He does a move action Spot Check of 10, locates the precise location of Frodo and Sam, and the precise location of the 4 orcs on them. He fires his bow, killing one of the 4 orcs. (House Rule for Fog of Battle, for Spot Check.)

The combat goes on ...