Comments and questions on 3.5 from a Newbie

[Staffan]

I find the new rules on touch attacks hilarious.
In 1st and 2nd edition, we all worried about the dreaded level draining undead. We worried about them even with the cleric at hand to turn them.

Some things to note:

The first monster, CR-wise, that is both incorporeal and has an energy drain attack, is the spectre, at CR 7. The spectre's attack bonus is +6. A 7th level fighter probably has a touch AC of at least 12 (+1 Dex, +1 deflection from Ring of Protection), 16 if the wizard casts mage armor on him. In addition, if he's fighting a spectre, he would probably try to increase his touch AC by fighting defensively (giving +2 AC for -4 to hit) and/or using Combat Expertise (up to +5 AC for -5 to hit). So while the spectre has a pretty good chance to hit, it's not guaranteed. Also, the spectre only has 45 hp and an AC of 15.

Some examples from other CR 7 monsters, for comparison: Bulette (+16/2d8+8 attack, AC 22, 94 hp), Hellcat (2x +13/1d8+6 and +8/2d8+3 attack, AC 21, 60 hp), Huge Monstrous Scorpion (2x +11/1d8+6 and +6/2d4+3+poison to attack, AC 20, 75 hp), Red Slaad (+11/2d8+5 and 2x +9/1d4+2 to attack, AC 19, 52 hp), and Umber Hulk (2x +11/2d4+6 and +9/2d8+3 to attack, AC 18, 71 hp, confusion gaze). So the spectre is lagging behind here.

Finally, energy drain itself has lost a lot of its teeth. The immediate effect is that you gain a "negative level", which basically gives you -1 to everything, -5 hp, and you lose one prepared spell of your highest level. 24 hours after the attack, you get a save (DC 15 for a spectre) to restore your levels, before they turn into actual level loss. During this 24-hour grace period, you have plenty of opportunity to either find some way of boosting your Fort save before the critical time, or for the party cleric to prepare and cast restoration (which is a 4th level spell now - conveniently castable by a 7th level cleric), which either restores all negative levels or one level that has actually been lost.

 

[Edena_of_Neith]

(humor, correction of my previous mistake)

Ah, my pardons. It's the duelist in the DMG, and she's not quite as bad as all that.
If she has a 20 intelligence, and is a 5th level duelist, she'd get +5 to her AC.
At 10th level, she'd gain 10 to her AC for Elaborate Parry, but she cannot wear armor. My mistake.

She can only don a +5 cloak of protection, instead.
And a headband of intellect +5.

I love it. ACs in the 40s aren't that uncommon, you say, at epic levels.
The highest AC I ever saw, in 20 years of gaming, prior to 3rd edition, was - 24. That would be 44 in 3rd edition. And you say ACs in the 40s aren't *that* uncommon over level 20 in 3rd edition. lolol ...

The highest AC any character of mine ever achieved was -12 (32.) The highest AC Edena the Cleric ever achieved was -3 (AC 23.)

Now, they can achieve AC 30 and better easier. And the 40s aren't uncommon.

Note to all 2nd edition characters trapped in 3rd edition: RUN.

EDIT: I realize the 3rd edition 20th level fighter would easily kill the wraith.
I'm speaking of the 2nd edition 20th level fighter.
The wraith, however, gains all the benefits of 3rd edition. It could have spells, it could be wearing ghosttouch armor, it could be a high level fighter itself. The 2nd edition fighter is expecting a Standard Wraith (the player has probably memorized it from the 2nd edition monster manual.)
The poor 2nd edition 20th level fighter is hit with a deluge of assaults that he never expected, and in many cases simply didn't exist as options in 2nd edition ... and all his armor defenses are annulled.
Yeah, he can still make his save versus death magic and shrug off the level drain. But if I were playing him, I'd be running.

It's not that they upgunned everyone in 3rd edition. That's not it.
It's that they gave everyone so many CHOICES in 3rd edition. THAT has made everyone and every monster bloody powerful!

So yeah, a 3rd edition fighter wipes the floor with the wraith.
A 2nd edition 20th level fighter with +5 plate armor and +5 shield and 18 dexterity, runs for his life.

EDIT: That's assuming it's a mere CR 5 to CR 10 wraith. If it's a CR 20 wraith, designed to take on a 20th level 3rd edition fighter, the 20th level 2nd edition fighter is so fried, you can't scrape him off the ground with an adamantite spatula!

 

[kenobi65]

You are thinking of a 3rd edition 20th level fighter.
I'm talking about a 2nd edition 20th level fighter.

Except that no 2E fighter would have to face a 3E incorporeal undead.

Trying to mix-and-match 2E and 3E rules and concepts is going to give you these weird observations, Edena.

Maybe you're just posting these as wry observations, but some of them come across as you saying, "holy s***, this is completely broken!" And, we've been trying to show you how, no, it's not, it's just different than it used to be.

3rd edition characters and monsters can pull stunts beyond the wildest dreams of 2nd and 1st edition characters.

Yup. And, conversely, as you've ponted out over the last days, there were also things you could do fairly easily in 2E that are difficult, if not impossible, in 3E.

 

[kenobi65]

She can only don a +5 cloak of protection, instead.
And a headband of intellect +5.

Ah, here's another new gem for you from the DMG.

In 1E / 2E, there were both Cloaks and Rings of Protection. Both gave bonuses to both saves and AC, and they stacked.

In 3E, Rings of Protection give a bonus to AC, and only AC. Cloaks of Resistance give a bonus to saves, and only saves.

And, a Headband of Intellect +6 (the best there is) would give her an AC bonus of +3, since raising your Intelligence by 6 points raises your Int bonus by +3.

And, in addition to those things, she could (and probably would) have Bracers of Armor and an Amulet of Natural Armor.

Edit: oh, and Elaborate Parry only works if the duelist is fighting defensively, or doing total defense.

 

[Edena_of_Neith]

No, no, no, you got me all wrong.
I'm not saying 3rd edition is broken!
I'm not attempting to dis 3rd edition. I LIKE what I am reading.

I just find it humorous, and am trying to be humorous.
I'm simply imagining a time-travel situation where 2nd edition characters were thrown into a 3rd edition world. They had to stick to the 2nd edition rules, but everyone else used the 3rd edition rules, including their opponents.
I find it humorous. The poor 2nd edition characters would be hiding in terror from those 5 orcs on the ridge yonder.

Remember that I can still look at the game through the lens of a 2nd edition mindset, but now I'm learning to look at it through the lens of a 3.5 mindset also.
The 3.5 system works quite well, I think. To me, it seems very good indeed. I didn't just go and buy all those books without good reason! I really LIKE the 3.5 system!

But it is hilarious, when you take a 2nd edition mindset, and apply it.
It is. I mean, I wish to heck *I* had had access to all these cool, great, imaginative rules when I was playing regularly!
I do. As I said, Jozan is the cleric Edena should have been. Alhandra is the paladin Osilovar should have been. Valdania is the druid Cyndelle should have been. And Lidda is the rogue Aerviue should have been.

I lament the fact I did not have these rules back in the 80s and 90s. If we had had these rules, we would have had more fun. A lot more fun.
Looking at it from the perspective of 3.5 - through the lens of 3.5 - I see now we were playing AD&D in a straitjacket, and I have to wonder how in heaven's name we had any fun at all?

But it IS hilarious, to think of a 20th level fighter maxed to the hit with +5 items, hiding from a wraith. That's funny. And that's what would happen if the fighter had to abide by those 2nd edition rules, and the wraith got the 3rd edition rules (and especially, if it was a CR 15 to 20 challenge.)

Nay, I am not dissing 3.5. I'm complimenting it. Bigtime. I mean, BIGTIME.
I think it's kick butt. I think I'm going to have a lot of fun with this new game.

And I think that, I'm going to eventually actually figure out HOW to combine all those bonuses and whatnot, and then you'll see what Broken Characters truly are! I'll submit some!

 

[kenobi65]

No, no, no, you got me all wrong.
I'm not saying 3rd edition is broken!
I'm not attempting to dis 3rd edition. I LIKE what I am reading.

I just find it humorous, and am trying to be humorous.

Ah, understood, and sorry for the misunderstanding.

I lament the fact I did not have these rules back in the 80s and 90s. If we had had these rules, we would have had more fun. A lot more fun.
Looking at it from the perspective of 3.5 - through the lens of 3.5 - I see now we were playing AD&D in a straitjacket, and I have to wonder how in heaven's name we had any fun at all?

I agree with you there. I stopped playing AD&D around 1995, because I had become very disenchanted with the clunky, inconsistent rules. From '95 to '00, I was playing various other, newer, game systems. 3E brought me back to D&D (and I know, from reading this board, that my experience was by no means unique).

 

[monboesen]

And I think that, I'm going to eventually actually figure out HOW to combine all those bonuses and whatnot, and then you'll see what Broken Characters truly are! I'll submit some!

And here you have identified one of 3ed biggest drawbacks. It is difficult to remember these rules for bonuses. Even more when you start using spells to buff people.

"Huh. So the Bulls strength spells doesn't make me stronger because I'm already wearing a Belt of giant strength..."

For casual players (like mine) who don't enjoy immersing themselves in the rules and reads the PH as where it the holy book, the numereous types of bonuses and the stacking rules grinds the game to a hold every time

Regarding ability scores there has been a paradigm shift since 2ed. You might like (and be used to) to see 15-18 in most scores, but you need to realise that it means something entirely different in 3ed. In 3ed a 12 is a good score. It gives you a positive modifier to whatever that score affects. So a 12 in str equals a 2ed 17, in dex a 2ed 15 (not even sure if its 16) and so on. So ability scores don't need to as high.

25 point buy is a bit low in most peoples regard, but is the baseline for the game. That means thats the abilty score array that the game is balanced against. Playtesters all around the world have tested the game with those scores and their results have been used to assay challenge ratings (Do you know how those work?). So if you allow players better scores (like rolling 4d6) you have upped the power level of the game and need higher CR to challenge them. This leads to more XP and faster level gain. Doesn't have to be a problem, just need to be prepared for it.

Anyway if all choose low charisma you make them pay. (and remember the bard, sorcerer and paladin all needs high charisma to work, so not all can ignore it).

People won't trust them
People won't like them
Peple won't hire them
People will ignore and mistreat (and betray) them
They will get less money from selling goods
They will not be recognized for their heroic deeds
The king will find more charismatic people to do his work (he likes that other adventuring group better, even if they are a bit worse at getting the job done)
and so on..

Make it matter and players will choose higher charisma next time. Be sure that they understand that charisma has nothing to do with good looks (players get to choose how they look). But everything to do with force of personality. The blustering, intimidating fighter does not have a charisma of 8, because then he would not be blustering and intimidating. He would most likely be quiet and insecure in social settings. Charisma equals Strength, its just strength of personality.

Low charisma = quiet, shy, introspective, dull, insecure, stuttering, always says the wrong thing.

High charisma = charming, intimidating!, likeable, interesting, well spoken, noticeable, stands out in a crowd, reasuring.

 

[Edena_of_Neith]

I know every monster template has a CR. I believe your PC level (character level) is his CR.

I think I understand the spirit of how CR works. It is there to support balance.
When I refer to balance, I'm referring to something very specific that is summed up in one sentence: Every player has a fair chance at having an equal share of the fun.
That's what they stressed over and over in chapter 1 of the DMG, and that's a balance I like.

CR is a part of an interlocking system of rules designed to maintain balance (that is, to maintain every player's fair chance at an equal share of the fun.)

The experience point rules and CR are interlocking. If a party of 4 characters takes on 3 challenges equal to it's CR (the combined party's CR) the whole party is likely to level. But they must take on and win those challenges. That is an important point, not a truism. See below.
A 1st level party of 4 characters takes on a CR 4 challenge. Then another. Then another. They level to 2nd level.
A 20th level party of 4 characters takes on a CR 80 challenge. Then another. Then another. They level to 21st level.

That's because the experience point charts grant you more experience for higher CRs, equal experience (relative to levels, of course) for equal CRs, and lesser CRs for lower CRs. (Your 20th level character can go kill orcs all day, but he'll never gain any experience from it.)

But ...

The CR of 4 for that 1st level party, and the CR 80 for that 20th level party, is a CR designed to challenge the players and their characters to the limits of their ability.
Thus, if players fight amongst each other, argue, refuse to cooperate, are lazy, don't try, knife each other, or otherwise don't work at winning, the party loses and they gain no experience points. Or worse, characters die and must be resurrected. Or the ultimate punishment of a total party kill.
In other words, cooperation is not optional. It is a requirement.
This reality is reinforced by the imbalances between characters. Each has a specialization, and none can succeed alone. The rules simply do not permit self-sufficient characters against CR challenges equal to their own. (You can go on killing orcs all day at 20th level and be self-sufficient, but you won't gain any experience. You might as well have retired the character for all your trouble. If you want to actually gain anything, you must get back into that group and actually try.)

This rule not only applies to the 1st level party, but it applies to the 3rd level party, the 5th level party, the 7th level party, the 10th level party, the 15th level party, and the 20th level party. Apparently, it applies to the 30th level party, the 40th level party, and the 100th level party too (if you can find appropriate CR challenges: thus epic monsters.)

In other words, nobody gets a free ride. Nobody is exempt from the necessity of cooperation. Nobody can escape the imbalance in their character.

The CR ratings ... that is what the CR ratings are all about. That is why they exist.
They exist, along with the 3rd edition experience point charts, to ensure a scenario where the players need to cooperate to advance.
If the players must cooperate, there is more fun. If characters are imbalanced, everyone gets their own chance to shine. If nothing is easy, there is no room for fighting, arguing, backstabbing your party, being lazy, and not doing your best. You have to pull your weight.

That's what CR is all about.

I like it.
At first, I thought it was ridiculous, but I did not understand it.
Now, I think it's a great idea.

 

[Silveras]

I know every monster template has a CR. I believe your PC level (character level) is his CR.

--snip --

The experience point rules and CR are interlocking. If a party of 4 characters takes on 3 challenges equal to it's CR (the combined party's CR) the whole party is likely to level. But they must take on and win those challenges. That is an important point, not a truism. See below.
A 1st level party of 4 characters takes on a CR 4 challenge. Then another. Then another. They level to 2nd level.
A 20th level party of 4 characters takes on a CR 80 challenge. Then another. Then another. They level to 21st level.

Nope.
PCs do not have a CR. CR is a rating of how dangerous the creature/trap is. It indicates what level a characters would have a reasonable chance of success. A CR 4 creature is a challenged for a party of 4 4th level characters. It is quite likely to kill at least one, probably two, possibly three or all four of a party of 1st level characters facing it.

According to the designers, 3rd Edition is designed to require about 13 "appropriate CR" encounters for a party to reach the next level. The DM has some leeway to mix in higher and lower CR encounters, realizing that lower CR = easier, and higher = harder.

An "appropriate CR" encounter is one equal to the AVERAGE (not SUM) of the character's levels. There is a chart in the DMG (p.49) indicating the relative recommended frequency of easier and harder encounters.

 

[Edena_of_Neith]

I realize that worldwide playtesting of 3rd edition went on for many years before 3rd edition was released.
I realize a truly tremendous amount of thought and effort went into 3rd edition.
I respect that.
I appreciate the 25 Point Buy system.

I'm just retaining a concept from another time: the 4d6 roll system.
It does affect balance (that is, the chance for each player to have a fair chance at an equal share of the fun) and thus it must be considered carefully.
You would not want one player doing a point buy of 25, and let a second player roll 4d6, obviously.

A low charisma is just what you said it is: a handicap.
Unfortunately, everyone I played with in tournament play was all too happy to take this handicap. An unrealistic POV, in my opinion, but in the tournament charisma rarely came into play (there wasn't time for it to come into play.)
In a campaign in home play, charisma is obviously really going to come into play. So, unlike tournament play where charisma can be overlooked, the players must consider matters before they leave their charisma at 8.

In my case ... well ... (grins) ... I'm an old fogey on this one.
This is something so ingrained in me from 20 years of play that it's like breathing.
The 4d6 method is just ingrained.

-

For me, learning 3.5 is like learning a foreign language (although not nearly as hard as learning a foreign language.)
The vocabulary is different (You becomes du, in German.)
The mindset is different (You never say du to someone in German, unless you are very close to them. You say Sie, or Ihr.)
The way of thinking is different:

I bin, diese Game funf Yahren gelearnen sollen.

A literal translation is: I should have learned this game 5 years ago.
But the actual translation is: I am, this game 5 years ago, learned should.

(If that's wrong, I'm sure anyone who really knows his German can correct me, and provide a much better example of the alternate sentence structure and flow of conscious thought, in German, as opposed to English.)

Well, 3.5 is like that.
There is new vocabulary. To hit becomes BAB.
There are different mindsets. +5 BAB means 5th level, right? Yes ... but it means a lot more than that. It means potential access to Feats, PrCs, possible multiclassing, and a lot more. And 5th level doesn't mean 5th level fighter necessarily: it means 5th level character.
There are profoundly different approaches in thinking. Those 5 orcs on the hillock are not just orcs (THAC0 20, 5 hit points, AC 4, one attack for 1 to 8 points of damage.) Those orcs could be wizards, clerics, rangers, assassins, arcane tricksters, or polymorphed monsters of some sort with high DCs.

The old illusion spells from 2nd edition (Phantasmal Force, Improved Phantasmal Force, Spectral Force, Advanced Illusion, Permanent Illusion, Programmed Illusion) allowed you to create a number of monsters equal to your level in hit dice or less.
In addition, you had to have seen the monster to accurately duplicate it, and to duplicate any of it's attacks, you had to be subject to them fully.

But in 3rd edition, such a use of Spectral Force (if you brought that spell forward fully) would be different.
You could, let's say, still create a monster with up to your level in hit dice, if you had seen it, and you could duplicate it's attacks if you had experienced them.
But could you duplicate it's Feats? It's skills? It's spell-like abilities? You do not have those Feats or skills or spell-like abilities yourself. Perhaps you can: perhaps the magic is powerful enough to allow this. Perhaps you cannot: perhaps the magic is not sufficient.

Note that they did not bring Spectral Force in it's old version forward. Spectral Force can dupe people into seeing what is not there, but it cannot cause people to fall unconscious, thinking they've been killed by an illusory attack.
But if you DID bring the spell forward, you'd have to translate it ... into a foreign language. The result might be unbalancing, or not. I don't know. The point is, is that you HAVE to translate it into a foreign language.

For me, the attempt to learn the foreign language of 3rd edition is a process of memorization (as with any foreign language), profound astonishment (they CAN'T do that?! They can do WHAT?!) and outright humor (An orc! An orc! Run for your lives! )

I'm guessing that, 5 years ago, all the rest of you went through the same process I'm going through now.
So humor me here.
I'm not dissing 3rd edition, even when it seems I am. If I AM going to dis it, I'll say so openly, with no humor attacked. (grins evilly)