Comments and questions on 3.5 from a Newbie

[Silveras]

Yes, because the enhancment bonus does not enhance AC, it enhances the armor bonus, which affects the AC. That means that +2 chain mail grants a +7 armor bonus to AC and is completely ignored by touch attacks.

This is a point that many who played 1st/2nd Edition had a hard time adjusting to. It is more clearly expressed as:

Chainmail grants a +5 Armor bonus. The magical +2 enhancement bonus of +2 Chainmail increases that to a +7 Armor bonus; it does NOT add a +2 enhancement bonus to the AC directly. Anything that ignores Armor bonuses (like touch attacks) ignores the enhanced Armor bonus, as well.

 

[Edena_of_Neith]

(comes back from a long-distance shopping trip with the Monster Manual 3.5, the Complete Warrior, the Book of Exalted Deeds, and the Expanded Psionics Handbook. Is back in the Hobby, indeed.)

I think I got the core books I need now ...

-

In 1st and 2nd edition, Girdles of Giant Strength were fairly common and quite popular. They granted Strengths that allowed for attack bonuses of +3 to +7, and damage bonuses of +7 to +15.
Back at that time, bonuses of the same type stacked (winces, thinking of the statement in the 3.5 DMG: We, by this new system of disallowing stacking bonuses of the same type, encourage creative gaming, not pile-it-on gaming.)
Thus, you had things like fighters with Girdles of Giant Strength and a +5 sword, and a +3 sword, and 2 attacks per round, and the fighter attacked with the off-hand (gaining 2 more attacks at only a -1 to -2, typically.)

In 3rd Edition, you cannot have more than a +5 enhancement. Thus, a Girdle of Giant Strength is a major artifact (artifacts were defined as items that broke the rules in 2nd edition, and I think it reasonable to assume they are the items that break the rules in 3rd edition also. But just think: If you have this item, and only a few exist, everyone wants to share your good luck ... which means you are out of luck.)

-

I find the new rules on touch attacks hilarious.
In 1st and 2nd edition, we all worried about the dreaded level draining undead. We worried about them even with the cleric at hand to turn them.
But it was only worry. When we faced wraiths, spectres, and the like, we shot magical arrows at them, fired spells at them, and turned them if possible.

Back then, a fighter in +3 chain mail, with a +3 shield, and a 17 dexterity, would have had an AC of - 5 (in 2nd edition terms) or 25 (in 3.5 terms.)
Pretty good. A good chance that wraith or spectre won't hit, if it somehow manages to close to melee range.
Yes, something to be worried about. But nothing to get overly dramatic about.

Now, have those players time travel to the present.
Said fighter with the +3 chain mail and +3 shield, and 17 dexterity, has an AC of 7 (in 2nd edition terms) or 13 (in 3rd edition terms) against the level draining attack. And although there is a save to not permanently lose levels, it must be made for each negative level bestowed, and your chance of making it isn't good.

These time travelled players would have one of three reactions:

1. They did WHAT?! You gotta be joking. And not a funny joke!
(And you, the DM, smile gently and shake your head.)

2. We quit!
(And you, the DM, kindly inform them you won't send them back in time to their proper time, if they don't play! )

3. RUN FOR YOUR LIVES. (The party sets the new Olympic World Records (1st, 2nd, 3rd, and 4th place) for the fastest 50 yard dash in known history.)

That is what would happen.
Oh, if they only knew, those time travelled 2E players. If only they knew, that the incorporeal touch attacks were only the tip of the iceberg. They are now in a new world ... of touch spells, ranged touch spells, sneak attacks, ranged sneak attacks, ranged sneak touch attacks (that one scares ME ... ) assassins with Death Strikes and Feats that allow such strikes at range, Arcane Archers that shoot through 3 foot thick stone walls without batting an eyelash, Bladesingers that drop Quicken Spells AND carve you up in the same round (at low levels ...), and other sweet things like that.
That's just the beginning. Then, there are all those monsters out there, and they can have character levels and Feats and Skills and supernatural abilities, and ...

2E Party: You are saying our 20th level fighter with the +5 sword, +5 defender, +5 plate armor, +5 shield, and 20 strength has no chance against a wraith? A wraith?! Just what kind of world are you trying to push on us?!
(You the DM) The 3rd edition world. Get used to it. Or die of it. By the way, that wraith is THROUGHLY enjoying the fact that a 20th level fighter with +5 everything is running away from it like a scared rabbit. And ... you DO realize you won't be able to outrun it, right? Because you will tire out and it won't. You didn't realize that? Oh well ... perhaps you should have honored and respected your party cleric a little bit more than you did, so he didn't abandon you long ago. Oh well ...

 

[Edena_of_Neith]

And that duelist (I think that's the name) from the Complete Adventurer is hilarious too.
At 10th level, she gains 10 to her AC for one PrC ability, and another 10 to her AC for another PrC ability. And she can wear light armor, and many magical items, and gets her dexterity.

Nothing like going to AC 30 in 10 levels, just due to your PrC. (chuckles)
Add in Dex 18, and it's AC 34. Add in +5 elven chain, and it's up to 44. Add in those assorted divine, exalted, luck, circumstance, and other bonuses, and you're pushing 50.

(This is why you don't mess around with Athos, Porthos, and Aramis ...)

 

[Edena_of_Neith]

I will admit it: some of my reactions to the new rules fell under the heading of (deleted, since it would offend Eric Noah's Grandmother.)
Not that I am dissing anything, just expressing utter astonishment at things.

Oh, and there's nothing like a mage being able to cast ALL of his spells as Quickened Spells ... period.
I read that in the Complete Arcane, before I left.
Can we say ... well, there is nothing to say. Except that a 50th level wizard in THIS version of the game, Wins. Period. Finis. No Saving Throw.

For those of you worried about Acererak in the Tomb of Horrors, consider that he probably has all the epic metamagic feats.
And you want to take him on?
Really?
REALLY?

... and now your soul will die. (emphasis on the WILL part)

 

[Tiberius]

(looks tired)
Concerning the DMG:

I don't know where to begin or end with the DMG.
I will say this: The Eldritch Knight IS the old fighter/mage, minus Feats (but then again, he does not have to advance at half rate by multiclassing.)
The Arcane Archer 9th level = You're Dead.

(snip simultaneous use of AA powers)

Doesn't work quite that way. While the Arcane Archer is capable of using each of those special powers, he can't use them all at once. Each one requires a standard action to use (probably for the very reason you outlined above).

Who was it in the 3rd Edition Design Team who decided mages would no longer gain new spell slots at 20th level?
And why was that decision taken?
Unless some optional rule (Unearthed Arcana, perhaps) exists to negate that, there is no point in taking a wizard or sorcerer beyond 20th level at all. (Ok, so you might say: nobody goes beyond that anyways. That is not the point. Some do. I am asking the Why of things.)

This is addressed in the Epic Level Handbook, to mixed reviews. Epic characters on the whole become fighter-like, in that further advancement in their classes is gained less through improved class features but more through bonus feats. Casters get access to the epic feats Improved Spell Capacity (which opens up 10th+ level spell slots for metamagic or just stuffing extra spells into) and Epic Spellcasting (the ability to create and cast world-shaking spells [in theory]) as enhancements to their spellcasting prowess. They can access the assorted Automatic Metamagic feats, and some new metamagic feats. They can also gain the Craft Epic [item] feats, which allow for things like that girdle you talk about. But, one thing at a time.

I'm not sure of the rationale, but if I had to guess, I'd give it something like this:
BAB and save progression do not function as normal under the epic level rules. Every couple of levels, every epic character gains a +1 epic bonus to their attacks and saves. These bonuses are different in that, among other things, they never give extra attacks. So if your BAB at 20 is 20/15/10/5 and you become a 22nd level character, your BAB becomes 21/16/11/6, not 21/26/11/6/1. Classes based around these (like fighters, monks, rogues, etc.) must use these less favorable bonuses. If the spellcasting classes continued to progress as they did before the epic levels, it would be unbalancing. Instead, they get bonus feats more frequently than their counterparts, which enables them to improve themselves every couple of levels like their less-magical friends.

Many people dislike the ELH's take on level 21+. One of the more common complaints is that while a Fighter 10/Wizard 10 gets the same BAB, saves, and spell progression no matter how you go about constructing it, a Fighter 20/Wizard 20's BAB alone could vary between 25/20/15/10 (if the Ftr20 is taken first) and 15/10 (if the Wiz20 is taken first), to say nothing about saves and spell capacity. I'd give it a read, though, and make yer own call.

I am going to translate a very popular item from 1st and 2nd Edition into 3.5 terms:

Girdle of Giant Strength (Major Artifact)

This particular girdle, when donned, grants the wearer a + 30 enhancement bonus to strength. This allows for a +15 bonus to attack rolls, damage rolls, skill checks based on strength, on grapple checks and other combat maneuvers involving strength, and on anything else related to strength.
This bonus does not stack with other enhancement bonuses to Strength, but it stacks with other kinds of bonuses to Strength (inherent, luck, exalted, etc.)
This bonus does stack with the enhancement bonuses to attack and damage from weapons with an enhancement bonus. Thus, a fighter with a +3 sword and this girdle would obtain a +18 to attack rolls, and a +18 to damage rolls.

(snip drawback)

Note that a Girdle of Giant Strength cannot raise the wearer's strength above 40. If he already has a strength of 40, the Girdle conveys no benefit although it does convey the clumsiness. If the wearer had a strength near 40: say, 35 to 37, a mere 3 to 5 point strength increase occurs, granting little benefit, and the full effects of the clumsiness are accrued nevertheless.

(snip another drawback)

This would be possible to create with the Craft Epic Wonderous Item feat. It would run you about 9,000,000 gp (market value), so would cost 4,500,000 gp and 360,000 xp to make (assuming a base Belt of Giant Strength +30, with no cost modifiers due to curses, intelligence, user restrictions, etc.).

 

[Tiberius]

Oh, and there's nothing like a mage being able to cast ALL of his spells as Quickened Spells ... period.
I read that in the Complete Arcane, before I left.
Can we say ... well, there is nothing to say. Except that a 50th level wizard in THIS version of the game, Wins. Period. Finis. No Saving Throw.

Well, even high-level casters are limited by the "One quickened spell a round" rule, so having all your spells be quickened would be counterproductive. Still, half quickened, half not is potent, and nasty.

 

[Tiberius]

2E Party: You are saying our 20th level fighter with the +5 sword, +5 defender, +5 plate armor, +5 shield, and 20 strength has no chance against a wraith? A wraith?! Just what kind of world are you trying to push on us?!
(You the DM) The 3rd edition world. Get used to it. Or die of it. By the way, that wraith is THROUGHLY enjoying the fact that a 20th level fighter with +5 everything is running away from it like a scared rabbit. And ... you DO realize you won't be able to outrun it, right? Because you will tire out and it won't. You didn't realize that? Oh well ... perhaps you should have honored and respected your party cleric a little bit more than you did, so he didn't abandon you long ago. Oh well ...

Well, this fighter isn't completely screwed. His incorporeal touch AC is low, though, but any self-respecting fighter of that level will have things like deflection bonuses, insight bonuses, dodge bonuses, etc., all of which function against inc. touches. Additionally, because he is wielding a magical weapon, he can affect the wraith. The thing's incorporeality just means he has a 50% chance of swinging right through it, unless he has Ghost Touch on the weapon. Further, he could put the Ghost Touch property on his armor and shield, giving him his full armor bonus against incorporeal touch attacks. While the enhancement bonus of the items in question cannot pass +5, you can stick a total of +10 worth of properties on the item. So a +5 ghost touch full plate wouldn't be unreasonable (in fact, it might be a good idea, at a mere 64,000 gp market price).

Also, the 4th level cleric spell Death Ward protects entirely against negative levels, and the 4th level spell Restoration removes them entirely, before they become a problem. Negative levels are much kinder in 3e, I think, even though the means of delivery are substantially nastier. Vampires and wights and such are no longer "AAAAAUGH!! DON'T LET IT TOUCH ME! I LIKE MY LEVELS!" antifun monsters, but rather threats challenging but not crippling to a well-prepared party.

 

[kenobi65]

In 3rd Edition, you cannot have more than a +5 enhancement. Thus, a Girdle of Giant Strength is a major artifact (artifacts were defined as items that broke the rules in 2nd edition, and I think it reasonable to assume they are the items that break the rules in 3rd edition also. But just think: If you have this item, and only a few exist, everyone wants to share your good luck ... which means you are out of luck.)

Well, that "no more than +5" is true of armor, shields, and weapons, as well as rings of protection, cloaks of resistance, and amulets of natural armor (at least, short of the Epic rules). Dig around a bit in the DMG, and you'll see that Bracers of Armor go up to +8.

And, the Belt of Giant Strength is a standard item in the DMG. There are "ability boost" items for all six abilities (Gloves of Dexterity, Headband of Intellect, etc.); all of them come in three flavors: +2 (4000gp), +4 (16,00gp), and +6 (36,000gp) (granting an enhancement bonus of that amount to the relevant ability score).

The reason that they only come in even-numbered "pluses" is because ability score bonuses increase every 2 points...thus, if you could have "Gloves of Dexterity +1", they'd give you an effective increase to your Dex if you currently had an odd-numbered Dexterity score (i.e., going from 17 to 18 increases your bonus), but would give you no benefit at all if you currently had an even-numbered Dexterity score.

Oh, and in a nod to the old editions of the game, the Strength-boosting item is Gauntlets of Ogre Power at +2, and the Belt of Giant Strength at +4 and +6.

2E Party: You are saying our 20th level fighter with the +5 sword, +5 defender, +5 plate armor, +5 shield, and 20 strength has no chance against a wraith? A wraith?! Just what kind of world are you trying to push on us?!
(You the DM) The 3rd edition world. Get used to it. Or die of it. By the way, that wraith is THROUGHLY enjoying the fact that a 20th level fighter with +5 everything is running away from it like a scared rabbit. And ... you DO realize you won't be able to outrun it, right? Because you will tire out and it won't. You didn't realize that? Oh well ... perhaps you should have honored and respected your party cleric a little bit more than you did, so he didn't abandon you long ago. Oh well ...

That's more than a bit of an overexaggeration. Even with the 50% miss chance for facing an incorporeal creature, the 20th level fighter is still not going to be seriously threatened by a wraith.

The wraith may get in one hit, but it's only a DC 14 Fort save to avoid the Con drain...a 20th level fighter has a base Fort save of +12; if he has even another +1 from anything (a Con of at least 12, a +1 ring of protection, whatever), he only fails that save on a natural 1. Meanwhile, said fighter will almost undoubtedly obliterate the wraith with one round of full attack (4 attacks, all will undoubtedly hit the AC unless the fighter rolls a natural 1, on average 2 will succeed vs. the miss chance, and from a 20th level fighter, that should be more than enough to destroy it).

 

[kenobi65]

And that duelist (I think that's the name) from the Complete Adventurer is hilarious too.

What class exactly are you talking about? Duelist is in the DMG, and, in a quick poke through Complete Adventurer, I couldn't find a class like what you're describing.

At any rate, by the time you reach 10th level in a PrC, you're looking at being around 17th level (at least)...and, in 3E, ACs in the 40s for fighting-types at that level aren't that unusual.

 

[Edena_of_Neith]

You are thinking of a 3rd edition 20th level fighter.
I'm talking about a 2nd edition 20th level fighter.
Converting his 2nd edition stats into 3rd edition terminology, he has BAB +20, Fort/Ref/Will saves of roughly +15 to +17, and he can attack twice per round (4 times per round if he uses a weapon in his off-hand.)
If he has +5 plate armor, a +5 shield, and 18 dexterity, he has a 2E dexterity of -12, which in 3rd edition would be thought of as a 32.

But he does not have access to deflection bonuses (what is a deflection bonus?)
He has no access to insight bonuses, dodge bonuses, or any other types of bonuses! Because those didn't exist in 2E, he can't use them now. He's stuck with his mighty +5 plate armor and +5 shield. (He was quite content with those, in 2E!)
Now ...
The fighter has a magic weapon. In 2E, that meant if he hit, he hit. Now, it means that even if he hit, he has a 50/50 chance of missing. (There was no such thing as a ghost touch weapon in 2E.)
Nor could he stack any additional bonuses onto his +5 armor. +5 armor, was +5 armor. That was it! Nothing more!

+5 ghost touch full plate was an unheard of dream back in 2nd edition. Remember that in 3rd edition characters (and monsters) have infinitely more choices than they had before.
But the fighter, brought forward in time, is still stuck with the 2nd edition rules, while his opponent - the wraith - gets to use the full 3rd edition ruleset!

So, the wraith starts attacking the AC 13 (AC 7, 2nd edition, since the fighter is stuck with his 2nd edition rules) fighter. Those levels start coming off real, real quick. (Give the wraith high levels in a class and multiple attacks, and the fighter just shrivels like burned toast in a broken toaster.)

Methinks the fighter wouldn't wait around to find out how the new ruleset was going to affect him, when he was stuck with the old ruleset.
Methinks the fighter, after realizing he was Armor Class 7 (2nd edition) would ... as I said ... pull the Olympic World Record for the 50 yard dash.

3rd edition characters and monsters can pull stunts beyond the wildest dreams of 2nd and 1st edition characters.

And I read that there exists a feat, by the way, that allows an epic wizard to take an extra quickened spell each round, when this epic feat is taken. Furthermore, the feat stacks: every time it is taken, the mage can unload another quicken spell in a round.
So, take the epic feat 5 times, unload 6 quickened spells in a single round.
And then the epic mage still gets his standard and move actions for the round, as well.

(looks at the cost and experience point cost of the Girdle of Giant Strength)

Building a Girdle would be too expensive and costly in experience to do in the current time.
Back in the Arcane Age, I am guessing, the rules for creating epic spells and epic items must have been different (read: easier.)
That's when they made the girdles. And some of them are still around today. My take.