It does not deny Narrin his dex bonus to AC. But it does allow Lidda to sneak attack. There are two basic conditions for sneak attack. The target is denied his dex bonus to AC or the target is flanked. There are others but these two are the main ones. This is found in the sneak attack section of the rogue class in the PHB.Edena_of_Neith said:
Comments and questions on 3.5 from a Newbie
- Thread starter Edena_of_Neith
- Start date
Edena_of_Neith
First Post
The 'Pity the Poor Bear' scenario.
When the dire bear approached (but could not yet see into the clearing) Narrin and Claire hid at the edges of the clearing, weapons and spells ready.
When the bear came into the clearing, both Claire and Narrin attacked by surprise.
Lidda had held her action. Seeing Claire and Narrin striking the bear by surprise, and figuring it would survive and kill at least one of them, she took off her two sneak attacks with her short bow against the bear.
And finally Grom, who was following the bear, came rushing into the glade in time to finish off the bear.
And which point, Grom demands the death of the elf, Claire.
Narrin sorta likes Claire, but Grom is a friend - and Grom cannot be deterred in this case - so Narrin moves to attack Claire. And now Claire must fight both Narrin and Grom.
Lidda decides to save Claire. She will take her blackjack, and whack Narrin and Grom both into unconsciousness. Somehow. Perhaps she should soften them up with sneak attacks first? ... (Hennett doesn't show up, in this scenario.)
When the dire bear approached (but could not yet see into the clearing) Narrin and Claire hid at the edges of the clearing, weapons and spells ready.
When the bear came into the clearing, both Claire and Narrin attacked by surprise.
Lidda had held her action. Seeing Claire and Narrin striking the bear by surprise, and figuring it would survive and kill at least one of them, she took off her two sneak attacks with her short bow against the bear.
And finally Grom, who was following the bear, came rushing into the glade in time to finish off the bear.
And which point, Grom demands the death of the elf, Claire.
Narrin sorta likes Claire, but Grom is a friend - and Grom cannot be deterred in this case - so Narrin moves to attack Claire. And now Claire must fight both Narrin and Grom.
Lidda decides to save Claire. She will take her blackjack, and whack Narrin and Grom both into unconsciousness. Somehow. Perhaps she should soften them up with sneak attacks first? ... (Hennett doesn't show up, in this scenario.)
Edena_of_Neith
First Post
LOL! A rogue can sneak attack if:
The target is surprised.
The target is flat-footed.
The target is grappled.
The target is running.
When the rogue flanks her target.
When the rogue is invisible.
When the target is blinded, or in the dark and no light source.
The target is cowering.
The target is helpless or sleeping.
The target is stunned.
DM to party: It is nighttime. Lidda is out there, somewhere out there, in the woods.
Party: We aren't afraid.
DM: Be afraid. Be very afraid.
The target is surprised.
The target is flat-footed.
The target is grappled.
The target is running.
When the rogue flanks her target.
When the rogue is invisible.
When the target is blinded, or in the dark and no light source.
The target is cowering.
The target is helpless or sleeping.
The target is stunned.
DM to party: It is nighttime. Lidda is out there, somewhere out there, in the woods.
Party: We aren't afraid.
DM: Be afraid. Be very afraid.
Yeah, rogues can be very dangerous if played properly. Sneak attack can ring up some nice damage. Remember, though, that concealment of the target negates sneak attack. So darkness or fog around the target disallows sneak attack, flanking or not.Edena_of_Neith said:
Ok, new scenario. I will take a stab at it. Leaving Hennett out is a good idea. A 12th level sorcerer is going to wipe out most everyone on this battlefield. I will post the battle later.
I started the battle with the dire bear in the clearing, Lidda hiding on one side 30 feet from the dire bear, Narrin and Claire on the other side hiding, each 50 feet from the dire bear and 35 feet from each other. Grom was always 100 feet behind the dire bear, so that is where he starts. Everyone gets a surprise round on the dire bear. I am still using Narrin with the +2 greatsword and the improved sunder, power attack, cleave, iron will, weapon focus and specialization feats.
Initiative is:
16 Lidda
14 Narrin
12 Claire
7 Grom
4 Dire Bear
Surprise Round
-Lidda waits for Claire and Narrin to act. She delays.
-Narrin shoots at the dire bear (19+8=27) hitting it for 10 damage. The dire bear has 95 hit points left. It roars with confidence. Narrin moves 5 feet away.
-Claire decides to Fireball the dire bear while it is in the open. 22 damage or 11 with a DC17 Reflex save. The dire bear manages to escape the hottest part of the inferno (19+9=28) and only takes 11 damage. It still has 84 hit points. Claire moves 5 feet away.
-Lidda will act now. She is dodging the dire bear. She fires at the flat-footed dire bear (3+18+1=22) and pierces it for 29 damage! The dire bear is down to about half its hit points at 55.
-Grom moves 30 feet toward the battle.
Round 1
-Narrin shoots at the dire bear but misses (7+8=15, AC16 flat-footed). He drops his bow in anger, moves 20 feet toward the dire bear, unsheathing his magical greatsword as he moves. "I'm gonna carve you up, beasty."
-Claire tries another fire spell, Scorching Ray. She fires it from her palm and hits it because it is so big (5+5=10, AC10 touch). 15 damage. The dire bear is down to 40 hit points. Claire then moves 30 feet, putting Narrin between her and the dire bear. "I don't have to outrun the bear, just you."
-Lidda fires twice at the still flat-footed bear. Her first shot sinks in (11+18+1=30) and does 26 damage. Dire bear only has 14 hit points left. Her second shot gets it in the eye (natural 20, 9+13+1=23 confirmed crit) finishing it with 32 damage (14-32=-18). Lidda moves 5 feet toward Narrin, smiling and pulling another arrow.
-Grom moves 60 feet toward the downed dire bear. He is now 30 feet from Lidda and 50 feet from Narrin. Narrin is 70 feet from Lidda and 30 feet from Claire.
Round 2
-Narrin turns and charges Claire, startling her. He puts some extra power into it (power attacks for 2, -2 to hit, +4 damage) and slices her open (15+12+2-2=27) for 21 damage. Claire only has 24 hit points so she is down to 3! "I have you now, my dear."
-Claire knows she must take out this brigand with one spell or she is "toast." She moves back 5 feet and cast her Hold Person spell, believing this big, dumb warrior to be weak against such an attack against his willpower. She's right because Narrin freezes in place (6+5=11, DC17). Claire draws her rapier, anticipating a coup de grace.
-Lidda pulls and drinks a potion of invisibility and moves 5 feet toward Narrin. She is dodging Grom now.
-Grom tries to pinpoint Lidda but cannot (16+9=25 Spot, DC40 to pinpoint). So he moves 25 feet, pulling his axes along the way, and attacks a random space near where Lidda stood last. I rolled randomly for the square he would attack and it fell to the correct square. Better to be lucky than rich, I guess. Grom swings a wide arc with that magical battle axe but hits nothing (13+9=22).
Round 3
-Narrin keeps trying to resist this cursed Hold Person spell, knowing if he does not he will be receiving that rapier in the gut. This must have allowed him to tap some inner strength because the spell failed (14+5=19, DC17). "Not so fast, girly."
-Claire, realizing her plan for the coup de grace will no longer work, casts her Shocking Grasp spell, moves 5 feet toward Narrin, and touches him (11+2+3=16, AC12 touch) for 17 electricity damage. Narrin was still unscathed in this battle, but now he has 25 hit points left.
-Lidda shoots Grom (9+18+1=28) and severely injures him for 28 damage. Grom is down to 8 hit points with one shot. Lidda is now visible. She backs off 5 feet and shoots him again (13+13+1=27). Without the sneak attack, it only does 5 damage. Grom is down to 3 hit points.
-Grom moves in 5 feet and attacks with both weapons, but misses (natural 1, 10+6=16). "Damn."
Round 4
-Narrin does not want to kill Claire outright, he want to capture her and take her back to his fortress. He tries to knock her out with his greatsword (10+12-4=18, AC18) and inflicts 16 nonlethal damage. Claires current hit point total of 3 is less than the nonlethal total of 16 so Claire falls unconscious. "Yes. I'll be back for you, lassie." Narrin moves 20 feet toward Lidda.
-Lidda moves 5 feet away from Grom and shoots him (18+18+1=37) for 7 damage. Grom is now at -4 hit points and is dying. Lidda turns and shoots Narrin (15+13=28) for 6 damage. Narrin drops to 19 hit points.
Round 5
-Narrin is now 50 feet from Lidda so he is out of charging range. He moves 20 feet, pulling out a potion of cure light wounds as he moves [I allow this as an extension of the move and draw a weapon rule, but I am not sure others would]. He drinks it and cures 7 hit points. He has 26 hit points now.
-Lidda pulls and drinks her last potion of invisibility, knowing that she needs to sneak one in to down this powerful fighter. She is dodging Narrin now. She moves 5 feet in a random direction not toward Narrin.
-Grom gets a stabilization roll. He stabilizes on a 01-10 on d100. Rolled 34. Loses 1 hit point and is down to -5.
Round 6
-Narrin charges where he guesses this little assassin is. I rolled randomly again and Narrin picks the right square. Narrin slices the air in front of him (18+12+2=32, but 01-50 indicates a miss, rolled 45). "Curses."
-Lidda shoots Narrin (10+18+1=29) and does 28 damage. Narrin only had 26, he drops to -2 hit points and begins dying.
-Grom's stabilization roll is 16. Close but no cigar. He drops to -6 hit points.
Grom and Narrin will die if they do not stabilize or are healed (not likely). Claire is alive but unconscious. Lidda will rescue her.
Initiative is:
16 Lidda
14 Narrin
12 Claire
7 Grom
4 Dire Bear
Surprise Round
-Lidda waits for Claire and Narrin to act. She delays.
-Narrin shoots at the dire bear (19+8=27) hitting it for 10 damage. The dire bear has 95 hit points left. It roars with confidence. Narrin moves 5 feet away.
-Claire decides to Fireball the dire bear while it is in the open. 22 damage or 11 with a DC17 Reflex save. The dire bear manages to escape the hottest part of the inferno (19+9=28) and only takes 11 damage. It still has 84 hit points. Claire moves 5 feet away.
-Lidda will act now. She is dodging the dire bear. She fires at the flat-footed dire bear (3+18+1=22) and pierces it for 29 damage! The dire bear is down to about half its hit points at 55.
-Grom moves 30 feet toward the battle.
Round 1
-Narrin shoots at the dire bear but misses (7+8=15, AC16 flat-footed). He drops his bow in anger, moves 20 feet toward the dire bear, unsheathing his magical greatsword as he moves. "I'm gonna carve you up, beasty."
-Claire tries another fire spell, Scorching Ray. She fires it from her palm and hits it because it is so big (5+5=10, AC10 touch). 15 damage. The dire bear is down to 40 hit points. Claire then moves 30 feet, putting Narrin between her and the dire bear. "I don't have to outrun the bear, just you."
-Lidda fires twice at the still flat-footed bear. Her first shot sinks in (11+18+1=30) and does 26 damage. Dire bear only has 14 hit points left. Her second shot gets it in the eye (natural 20, 9+13+1=23 confirmed crit) finishing it with 32 damage (14-32=-18). Lidda moves 5 feet toward Narrin, smiling and pulling another arrow.
-Grom moves 60 feet toward the downed dire bear. He is now 30 feet from Lidda and 50 feet from Narrin. Narrin is 70 feet from Lidda and 30 feet from Claire.
Round 2
-Narrin turns and charges Claire, startling her. He puts some extra power into it (power attacks for 2, -2 to hit, +4 damage) and slices her open (15+12+2-2=27) for 21 damage. Claire only has 24 hit points so she is down to 3! "I have you now, my dear."
-Claire knows she must take out this brigand with one spell or she is "toast." She moves back 5 feet and cast her Hold Person spell, believing this big, dumb warrior to be weak against such an attack against his willpower. She's right because Narrin freezes in place (6+5=11, DC17). Claire draws her rapier, anticipating a coup de grace.
-Lidda pulls and drinks a potion of invisibility and moves 5 feet toward Narrin. She is dodging Grom now.
-Grom tries to pinpoint Lidda but cannot (16+9=25 Spot, DC40 to pinpoint). So he moves 25 feet, pulling his axes along the way, and attacks a random space near where Lidda stood last. I rolled randomly for the square he would attack and it fell to the correct square. Better to be lucky than rich, I guess. Grom swings a wide arc with that magical battle axe but hits nothing (13+9=22).
Round 3
-Narrin keeps trying to resist this cursed Hold Person spell, knowing if he does not he will be receiving that rapier in the gut. This must have allowed him to tap some inner strength because the spell failed (14+5=19, DC17). "Not so fast, girly."
-Claire, realizing her plan for the coup de grace will no longer work, casts her Shocking Grasp spell, moves 5 feet toward Narrin, and touches him (11+2+3=16, AC12 touch) for 17 electricity damage. Narrin was still unscathed in this battle, but now he has 25 hit points left.
-Lidda shoots Grom (9+18+1=28) and severely injures him for 28 damage. Grom is down to 8 hit points with one shot. Lidda is now visible. She backs off 5 feet and shoots him again (13+13+1=27). Without the sneak attack, it only does 5 damage. Grom is down to 3 hit points.
-Grom moves in 5 feet and attacks with both weapons, but misses (natural 1, 10+6=16). "Damn."
Round 4
-Narrin does not want to kill Claire outright, he want to capture her and take her back to his fortress. He tries to knock her out with his greatsword (10+12-4=18, AC18) and inflicts 16 nonlethal damage. Claires current hit point total of 3 is less than the nonlethal total of 16 so Claire falls unconscious. "Yes. I'll be back for you, lassie." Narrin moves 20 feet toward Lidda.
-Lidda moves 5 feet away from Grom and shoots him (18+18+1=37) for 7 damage. Grom is now at -4 hit points and is dying. Lidda turns and shoots Narrin (15+13=28) for 6 damage. Narrin drops to 19 hit points.
Round 5
-Narrin is now 50 feet from Lidda so he is out of charging range. He moves 20 feet, pulling out a potion of cure light wounds as he moves [I allow this as an extension of the move and draw a weapon rule, but I am not sure others would]. He drinks it and cures 7 hit points. He has 26 hit points now.
-Lidda pulls and drinks her last potion of invisibility, knowing that she needs to sneak one in to down this powerful fighter. She is dodging Narrin now. She moves 5 feet in a random direction not toward Narrin.
-Grom gets a stabilization roll. He stabilizes on a 01-10 on d100. Rolled 34. Loses 1 hit point and is down to -5.
Round 6
-Narrin charges where he guesses this little assassin is. I rolled randomly again and Narrin picks the right square. Narrin slices the air in front of him (18+12+2=32, but 01-50 indicates a miss, rolled 45). "Curses."
-Lidda shoots Narrin (10+18+1=29) and does 28 damage. Narrin only had 26, he drops to -2 hit points and begins dying.
-Grom's stabilization roll is 16. Close but no cigar. He drops to -6 hit points.
Grom and Narrin will die if they do not stabilize or are healed (not likely). Claire is alive but unconscious. Lidda will rescue her.
The simple way I remember sneak attack.
1. Flatfooted they are dinied there dex bonus. Most
of the when there dinied there dex. They are flatfooted.
2. Flanked the eastiest way to say it is when when
two character are on the right and left side of a creature
or front and back.
3. Sneak attack does not work against undead, plant, or construct
and few other types of creature.
1. Flatfooted they are dinied there dex bonus. Most
of the when there dinied there dex. They are flatfooted.
2. Flanked the eastiest way to say it is when when
two character are on the right and left side of a creature
or front and back.
3. Sneak attack does not work against undead, plant, or construct
and few other types of creature.
Edena_of_Neith
First Post
(comes back from an attempt to buy the Monster Manual 3.5, cursing. A lot of time and effort wasted. Did pick up the Complete Adventurer, but the Complete Warrior was not available either. Couldn't find the hobby shop, either. Thinks buying online might be the ticket.)
Ok, Lidda is attempting to stablize Claire (and visible now.) Narrin and Grom are both down for the count. They are dying. Lidda is not stabilizing them.
Out of the underbrush comes a large arrow.
Lidda is surprised. She obtains no dexterity bonus. Her AC is 20.
17. +7
1 hit for a total of 10 points of damage.
That's the surprise round.
Initiative: Lidda 22, squire 15.
Lidda looks up into the trees, and does a Spot Check. Sure enough, she spots the squire.
A howling is heard, as Grom's wolf companion appears in the glade, charges Lidda, and attacks her. The wolf goes before Lidda or the squire, since it also obtained surprise.
The wolf grapples, wins, then goes for the pin and wins, preventing Lidda from shooting it. Lidda is - 4 AC, and -5 for 0 dexterity. Suddenly, she is only AC 11.
7. 17. +7, +5 (Rapid Shot is a useful feat, and a 2nd level ranger gets it, without having to take the Feat at all. Narrin's squire, a young man very loyal to Narrin and a 3rd level ranger, has arrived. Lidda did not see or hear him, as he had maxed out on his move silently abilities.)
2 hits.
9 damage and 5 damage. Another 14 points to Lidda, who is reduced to 33 out of 57.
Lidda: tries to break the pin, fails. Does some damage to the wolf, unarmed.
Squire: Moves, administers a healing potion to Narrin.
Lidda: tries to break the pin, fails. Does more damage to the wolf, unarmed.
Squire: Moves, administers a healing potion to Grom.
Both Narrin and Grom remain unconscious, however.
Lidda: tries yet again to break the pin, fails. Does more damage to the wolf, unarmed.
The squire: Stands and aims his bow at Lidda.
Squire: Cease resisting, and I'll call the wolf off. Otherwise, I'll shoot.
Lidda: surrenders.
(Hmmm ... the animal companion of a druid or ranger is thus very useful, because it forces your foe to take her actions against that animal and not you. And animals tend to be larger and stronger than humanoids, and thus far better at grappling and pinning.)
Ok, Lidda is attempting to stablize Claire (and visible now.) Narrin and Grom are both down for the count. They are dying. Lidda is not stabilizing them.
Out of the underbrush comes a large arrow.
Lidda is surprised. She obtains no dexterity bonus. Her AC is 20.
17. +7
1 hit for a total of 10 points of damage.
That's the surprise round.
Initiative: Lidda 22, squire 15.
Lidda looks up into the trees, and does a Spot Check. Sure enough, she spots the squire.
A howling is heard, as Grom's wolf companion appears in the glade, charges Lidda, and attacks her. The wolf goes before Lidda or the squire, since it also obtained surprise.
The wolf grapples, wins, then goes for the pin and wins, preventing Lidda from shooting it. Lidda is - 4 AC, and -5 for 0 dexterity. Suddenly, she is only AC 11.
7. 17. +7, +5 (Rapid Shot is a useful feat, and a 2nd level ranger gets it, without having to take the Feat at all. Narrin's squire, a young man very loyal to Narrin and a 3rd level ranger, has arrived. Lidda did not see or hear him, as he had maxed out on his move silently abilities.)
2 hits.
9 damage and 5 damage. Another 14 points to Lidda, who is reduced to 33 out of 57.
Lidda: tries to break the pin, fails. Does some damage to the wolf, unarmed.
Squire: Moves, administers a healing potion to Narrin.
Lidda: tries to break the pin, fails. Does more damage to the wolf, unarmed.
Squire: Moves, administers a healing potion to Grom.
Both Narrin and Grom remain unconscious, however.
Lidda: tries yet again to break the pin, fails. Does more damage to the wolf, unarmed.
The squire: Stands and aims his bow at Lidda.
Squire: Cease resisting, and I'll call the wolf off. Otherwise, I'll shoot.
Lidda: surrenders.
(Hmmm ... the animal companion of a druid or ranger is thus very useful, because it forces your foe to take her actions against that animal and not you. And animals tend to be larger and stronger than humanoids, and thus far better at grappling and pinning.)
Unfortunately the wolf is only a 2 HD animal that has a Grapple of +2. It could not pull off what you described. The wolf's trick is tripping after it bites. I like the idea of the ranger coming to Narrin's rescue, so I will work up a stat block for him and the wolf, too, then post my version of the second battle.
Similar Threads
