Complete Arcane base classes

[Victim]

The problem with the warmage -- and this problem afflicts a lot of the spellcaster/warrior classes -- is that non-Good BAB, the inability to wear heavy armor, and a small hit die means you are unacceptable as a front-rank fighter.

The converse of this problem is why the cleric is such a powerful class. (Admittedly, the cleric has only Average BAB, but makes up for it with a plethora of powerful buffing spells.)

In any event, the warmage is wholly unsuited to be wading into melee. In fact, the class may as well have no armor proficiency and only simple weapon profs (like the wizard or socerer), because it relies on its spells to deal damage.

I'm not sure why you'd consider the warmage as someone who wades into melee. The armor casting abilities and bigger HD are like their replacement for defensive spells. The class description is basically magic, living artillery piece. Artillery weapons don't really belong in close combat either.

Criticizing the warmage's melee ability is like complaining that fighters don't get attack spells. And Warmages can use heavy armor, it just takes them a couple of feats.

 

[JiffyPopTart]

Our 4 man party has 2 of the Complete Arcane classes in it. We are playing in the Age of Worms.

My friend is playing Nevik, a warlock. Doesn't seem too powered or under powered at 6th level, but he hasn't taken any blockbuster powers yet.

I am playing a Fighter2/Warmage4. He is awesome. I took my extra human feat and my bonus fighter feats to learn Rapid/Precise/Point-Blank shot, and spent a feat learning to use a Greatbow. I have a respectable AC of 18 and 35 hit points. I have a +4BAB, meaning I have a decent bonus when rapid firing (+7/+7) and have a +6 with my greatsword if stuck in melee. I find his versatility in combat (I can actually run up to people and use close range spells without getting immediately smitten) to be his main selling points.

An example of what he was able to pull off in a previous adventure.
1. Hide behind some brush. Wait for two sentries to get within one range increment.
2. Shoot mook1 on the suprise round.
3. Shoot Mook1 to finish him off and damage Mook2 in the first round.
4. Mook 2 runs behind some trees to hide from sniper.
5. Finish off Mook2 with a Magic Missle when I see his head pop up.

You can't do that with a straight up sorcerer or a straight up fighter with a 4th level character (which I was at the time).

DS

 

[Kesh]

I would love to play a Wu Jen t some point. Finding a gaming group that allows them, though, is a tough part.

 

[Felon]

As a level 11 Wizard, my Wizard has See invisible constantly, Darkvision constantly, Arcane Sight constantly...thanks to the permanency spell. I didnt even have to give up 4 of my 7 invocations for it.

You're also 5 levels higher than the Warlock in my group, and you had to pay XP for those abilities.

Yep, Seeten is trying to make the same erroneous point in the warlock's defense that a lot of folks do--namely, that the "at will" aspect of the warlock's ability is marginalized by the fact that sorcerers can cast a lot of lower-level spells virtually at will.

A closer look reveals a downright wonky design at work behind the invocations. For instance, the warlock can use Charm Monster at will at 6th level. Wizards and sorcerers don't even have that spell available at 6th level. Wonky.

Look at Bewitching Blast and Nauseating Blast. The former can incapacitate a target for 1 round, the other for 1 minute. Yet both are greater invocations. Wonky as hell.

To me, it seems obvious that the original intent was for the effective level of invocations to be the governing factor of when they became available to a warlock--similar to how a new level of spells becomes available to sorcerers. Thus, Charm (effective level 4th) would not become available until 8th level, as would Bewitching Blast (4th) , but Noxious Blast (6th) would not be available until 12th level. Somewhere along the way for some dumb reason this was scrapped in favor of the Least, Lesser, Greater, Dark scheme. If you want a more balanced warlock, I highly recommend ditching the latter scheme for the former.

I agree with Crothian's assessment that Use Magic Device is the true measure of a warlock.

 

[Fishbone]

Why do people persist in saying that the Warlock is Broken?
Here are some ideas:
Gnomes make very, very good Warlocks.
A thought for a Warlock gnome would be this: Don't take invocations and the like that require saves. Your main abilities are Dexterity and Constitution. Take Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Plunging Shot, Maximize Spell-Like Ability and Thicken Skin. Shoot for a 16 in Constitution on a roll and a 16 in Dexterity. Get an item that gives a Constitution bonus of at least 2. 20 Constitution and Damage Reduction. Fell Flight and Plunging Shot for that extra 1d6, Greater Fell Chasuble for +2d6. Then you'll take Vitriolic Blast. 14d6 acid damage, unlimited times a day, can be maxed 3 times for 84 damage. Still pretty bad as damage but you'll be darn hard to hit with Boots of Speed and a Wondrous item with Expeditious Retreat, DR 7/Cold Iron, and a little fast healing and a 30 Constitution. I think there is a spell that boosts DR by 5, 3rd level, so that is definately a possibility for item creation. Call this the "Energizer Bunny" because he keeps going and going and going...

 

[Felon]

The war mage I found fun. Just wave after wave of destruction. I don't like the sudden feats and would perfer they get real meta magic feats. But it was enjoyiable to play and role play a character with that kind of ability.

Waves of destruction is what it's all about. Big, high-HP point crtters may be beter-suited to barbarians, but Warmages destroy light enemies by the hordeful. Nobody can match them at that...yet.

 

[Felon]

Why do people persist in saying that the Warlock is Broken?

There are gradients between "fine" and "broken", and therein lies the warlock (along with many other classes).

 

[satori01]

Felon, sorry bud, but you are the one making the erroneous point.
I am assuming you have not read the Charm Invocation description, but it works like Charm Monster but only on one creature at a time.
As soon as the Warlock charms another creature the first charm is removed.

That is signifigantly less powerful than Charm Monster the spell.
A Sorcerer with Charm Monster on his list can charm a signifigant portion of a location, rest, and charm the rest, as the duration is days per level.

A Warlock using the Charm Invocation, is basically down one of his or her precious few Invocations known, as using it again removes the effect. This is not the powerhouse effect you thought it was.

Charm the Night Watch man into letting you in to the treasure vault, and to act normal for 6 days, better hope you do not have to charm anything on the inside, or are far out of town before you do use the Charm Invocation again.

Not trying to be harsh here, but a closer look reveals it to not be so "wonky" after all.

 

[Drowbane]

Waves of destruction is what it's all about. Big, high-HP point crtters may be beter-suited to barbarians, but Warmages destroy light enemies by the hordeful. Nobody can match them at that...yet.

War Mage holds second place here. The Wilder (with powers chosen for such a build) is unrivaled here. A 7th level Wilder can dish out 10d6 +10 Fire(or Cold)bolts.... or a 10d6 Lightning bolt with a DC 2 higher.

Wilders are extremely limited however... they rely on Expanded Knowledge to fuel thier powers known.

 

[Hussar]

In the 12th level game I play in, there's a Warmage. In combat, he can be pretty effective, with a wide variety of damaging spells, and lots of uses of them. However, there are many times I wish he was playing a standard wizard; with the warmage, if it doesn't do damage, he can't cast it (practically). It would be nice to get a haste once in a while, or invisibility, or another buff, and teleport would be very welcome. Also, unlike a sorcerer, he can't automatically use any arcane wands we find.

He can put out a lot of damage, that's for sure, but damage can always be done by the warriors. Having a warmage in the party has given me a new found appreciation for utility spells.

QFT.

I had the exact same experience with a warmage in my World's Largest Dungeon game. Sure, he's death on toast, but, the second that the situation calls for any sort of finesse, he's pooched. Much, MUCH rather have a straight up mage or even a sorc in the party than another warmage.