Complete Arcane base classes

[Nifft]

Not quite the same thing, but the fighter-type in my Epic game has a magic item that allows him to use Giant Size once per day. He's put it to truly spectacular use on a couple of occasions; a Colossal fighter with the right feats can dish out truly obscene amounts of damage using Power Attack and a two-handed weapon. This warrior has dealt upwards of 120 points of damage on one attack, a couple of times, using Giant Size combined with Power Attack and the fact that his sword is Holy and Anarchic (against Lawful Evil opponents of course). At four attacks per round, most opposition doesn't last long against a warrior who can do this.

Yeah, but that fighter-type faces the same challenges as a Colossal Monstrous Scorpion: people who can fly, or who can snipe from within passages too small for him to fit inside.

-- N

 

[paradox42]

On the original topic, I played a Warlock in a friend's game to 5th level (he missed 6th by 1 measly XP thanks to the no-2-level rule and the fact that the DM gave out XP only at the end of the adventure- and the game broke up before I could get him higher ). The fact that the Eldritch Blast can only go off once per round is a huge limiting factor, and means that at low levels you'd better have a genuine weapon available as backup if something gets close to you. But with my ability to See Invisibility, I was the only one in the party who could really deal with the Phantom Fungi that attacked us, and my ability to Detect Magic at will meant that the Wizard was able to free up slots at level 0 for other things.

I'd say the Warlock is definitely not overpowered- if anything it's a little underpowered- but it's a very unique and flavorful combination of abilities that works well as a support character. It can't stand very well on its own, but in the right party it can shine.

 

[paradox42]

Yeah, but that fighter-type faces the same challenges as a Colossal Monstrous Scorpion: people who can fly, or who can snipe from within passages too small for him to fit inside.

-- N

Actually he doesn't worry about the flying thing, thanks to (A) Boots of Teleportation and (B) Feathered Armor (which also lets him fly). Enemy mobility means nothing to him, and with his Mobility and Spring Attack he strongly favors combat tactics that let him get into combat and then pull back to force the enemy to follow him if they want to deal with him.

And for snipers, well, that's what the Sorceress is for (Electricity-Admixed, Maximized Fireball, anybody?). Those two together are one mean, mean combat machine.

 

[VirgilCaine]

But with my ability to See Invisibility, I was the only one in the party who could really deal with the Phantom Fungi that attacked us...

This would be more impressive if it wasn't Phantom Fungi. Invisible Rogues, maybe.

 

[Nifft]

Actually he doesn't worry about the flying thing, thanks to (A) Boots of Teleportation and (B) Feathered Armor (which also lets him fly). Enemy mobility means nothing to him, and with his Mobility and Spring Attack he strongly favors combat tactics that let him get into combat and then pull back to force the enemy to follow him if they want to deal with him.

And for snipers, well, that's what the Sorceress is for (Electricity-Admixed, Maximized Fireball, anybody?). Those two together are one mean, mean combat machine.

Oh, right, Epic level... in that case, all he has to worry about are Epic monsters like the various Colossi with their large anti-magic fields.

-- N

 

[satori01]

I understand that many people on philosophical grounds, object to a character having a sleu of at will spell like abillities.
Yet each time the discussion comes up, I never really feel like the "at will is too much camp" proves it's point.

Fly at will, so what! How many crevass, items on the top of pillars, pit traps, gapping chasms are people going to throw at their party that the difference bewteen flying at will or a Sorcerer with the Fly is going to make that much difference.

A Sorcerer with Haste or Improved Invisibility is alot more disruptive than a Warlock in my opinion. The game can handle easily a Warmage or the Magic Missle Machine Combat Sorcerer.
A 4 man group that is always Invisible or always Hasted is another thing entirely.

As a DM you have to be flexible to be able to handle a Warlock character. You have to accept that with just one Invocation choice you might very well be DM'ing a Nightcrawler type character, Dimension Door'ing all over the place.

Like anything in D&D, (high stats, an unusual combo of spells and feats, etc) it will not "break" the game if you do not let it.

 

[rgard]

I'd pretty much dismissed the warmage from my game until someone made a very good point over on RPGnet:

A frequent obstacle in keeping combats going in D&D is looking up spells. Classes with focussed spell lists help alleviate this problem because players get more intimate with the spell and spend less time looking spells up.

To that end, I don't think I'd use them in a campaign, but would definitely consider them for a dungeon-bash one off.

Yes, I've found the same thing. One way to speed up play is to convince the players to download the SRD and print out just the spells that the character knows or memorizes normally. This abbreviated and printed spell list does speed up play.

Thanks,
Rich

 

[Felon]

As a DM you have to be flexible to be able to handle a Warlock character. You have to accept that with just one Invocation choice you might very well be DM'ing a Nightcrawler type character, Dimension Door'ing all over the place.

DIfferent people DM D&D in different ways. Some DM's run adventures on rigorous time tables, others allow adventurers to explore at their pace and rest virtually at will. Some prefer huge free-for-all battles, others prefer lots of small skirmishes. Some would prefer the emphasis to be on intrigue and social situations, some like dungeons filled with problem-solving elements, and some like hack-and-slash. In short, there are all kinds of ways to play the game, and that means that a usable-at-will ability will have a different level of impact from one campaign to another. That's where each DM has to make his own calls. Flexibility is good; so is knowing when to set boundaries.

For the problem-solving DM, he may want to create situations where a decision about expending party resources has to be made in order to overcome an obstacle. For the hack-n'-slash DM, he may want to keep players from having abilities that allow them to "kite-kill" monsters. In both those cases, they have to decide for their own campaign whether or not a character with the ability to fly or D-door at will is an acceptable deviation from what the typical 6th-level character is capable of.

Like anything in D&D, (high stats, an unusual combo of spells and feats, etc) it will not "break" the game if you do not let it.

Again, the use of the term "break" implies a certain level of extremity, that we're talking about something that inevitably dooms a campaign to implode. Like I said earlier in the thread, there are many gradients between fine and broken. A DM may find high stats, a spell, or a feat to simply be a hassle, and one way to prevent it from raising his hackles is simply to disallow it.

The warlock is particularly tricky, because he has so few invocations that he will naturally be inclined to use them repetitively in ways that a wizard or sorcerer with "virtually-at-will" capabilities would not. An 11th-level sorcerer may be capable of casting Evard's black tentacles seven times a day, but he can do enough other stuff that he probably won't. An 11th-level warlock whose sole greater invocation is chiling tentacles is much more likely to match or exceed that seven time-a-day limit, and it's not hard to see how that could be a bit excessive.

 

[paradox42]

This would be more impressive if it wasn't Phantom Fungi. Invisible Rogues, maybe.

Oh, agreed. But at the level we were at, an invisible Rogue would have only been dealing about 3d6 damage with a short sword Sneak Attack anyway, so not hugely crippling given that he'd only be able to hit one of us at a time. If he hits me, sure I take damage, but the cleric can heal me- and it wasn't a Sneak Attack since I can see him. If he hits somebody else, they take damage and that's bad, but I can hit him back with impunity (from a distance with my EB, I assure you) and with a d6 hit die, he won't last more than about 3 rounds on average.

 

[paradox42]

Oh, right, Epic level... in that case, all he has to worry about are Epic monsters like the various Colossi with their large anti-magic fields.

-- N

Most definitely- the party hasn't put themselves in a situation yet where I can legitimately send them up against one of those, sadly, but when they do I'll be rubbing my hands with glee at the loss of their buffs. Of course, he'll immediately shrink back to normal size in said field, so that sort of defeats the purpose of using Giant Size doesn't it.