Complete Disagreement With Mike on Monsters (see post #205)

[Mouseferatu]

Oh, a depressed guy like Mouseferatu! Of course! It all makes sense now. (I guess I'll never be his friend now? )

Of course I'm depressed. I didn't actually get to help design 4E!

 

[JoeGKushner]

Oh, a depressed guy like Mouseferatu! Of course! It all makes sense now. (I guess I'll never be his friend now? )



Honestly, I don't think he's modelled accurately by being a Conjurer/Fighter using 3e-as-is. There's a bunch of things that the game adds to being a Conjurer that aren't true of Elric. And I don't like specialist wizards in the first place.

(Best specialist wizard in 3.5e? The 3.5e Bard - it's a combination enchanter/illusionist).

Cheers!

You know... another thread with suggestions on what some of the iconic characters would be like in 4e might be worth starting. (Go do it man, people are tired of seeing my name under new threads!)

 

[JoeGKushner]

Oh, definitely.

One thing I got from one of the interviews is that they really want to make monsters easier for the DM to use (which is why I bring up Awesome Blow... it's one of those shorthand abilities that I always forget about at the table). They've also said that they want monsters to be more distinct, and they'll do that by creating special abilities *especially* for that monster.

Cheers!

And that latter part also drives me nuts. By creating special abilities, they'll be feeding into a well of player-monster but instead of doing it at the front end, they'll be doing it from the back end.

"Wow, that's a great ability. I know! Let's make a feat or a PrC around it!"

 

[mhacdebhandia]

If you listen to the latest podcast, actually, it's clear that Wizards of the Coast didn't really have "monster design guidelines" until David Noonan and the others worked them up while designing Monster Manual V.

Yeah, they had rules about monster types and what kind of BAB and save progression, skill points, and Hit Dice size they got based on that, but those rules themselves weren't based on the goal of producing an appropriate challenge at each CR - you made a monster and gauged its CR after it was built in an entirely different system.

This time around, they do have rules for what kind of AC/BAB/damage/saves/hit points range a CR 5 (or 5th-level) monster should fall into. You create the monster with those guidelines and principles in mind . . .

. . . rather than trying to figure out where a 6HD monstrous humanoid with a high Strength and a low Dexterity fits in the CR scale based on its skills, feats, and whatnot.

 

[Mouseferatu]

I played a lot of 1st and 2nd edition and if that wasn't how they were put together then in their 'simplier' days I'm a three eyed monkey. And I sir, am no three eyed monkey!

No, I know very well that you have five eyes.

Yeah, older editions probably were pretty random. But given the team on 4E, and the lessons of 3E, I simply don't believe they'd go into 4E monster design without rules and guiding principles. They'll be different than they were in 3E, sure, but I'm absolutely certain they'll exist.

(And yeah, I know that wasn't your argument. I was responding mostly to Knightfall with that post.)

 

[MerricB]

Of course I'm depressed. I didn't actually get to help design 4E!

You know, you'd just be more depressed if you *had* got the job at Wizards... "Hi, Ari! Guess what! 4e! Oh, and we've done the bulk of the work on it already. Sorry."

I can just see you walking through the halls of Wizards with an axe in one hand, searching for Mike Mearls, and chanting "blood! blood! blood!".

Or maybe my imagination is running overtime? Nah. It must be what you'd do!

Cheers!

 

[JoeGKushner]

If you listen to the latest podcast, actually, it's clear that Wizards of the Coast didn't really have "monster design guidelines" until David Noonan and the others worked them up while designing Monster Manual V.

Yeah, they had rules about monster types and what kind of BAB and save progression, skill points, and Hit Dice size they got based on that, but those rules themselves weren't based on the goal of producing an appropriate challenge at each CR - you made a monster and gauged its CR after it was built in an entirely different system.

This time around, they do have rules for what kind of AC/BAB/damage/saves/hit points range a CR 5 (or 5th-level) monster should fall into. You create the monster with those guidelines and principles in mind . . .

. . . rather than trying to figure out where a 6HD monstrous humanoid with a high Strength and a low Dexterity fits in the CR scale based on its skills, feats, and whatnot.

Ironically enough, the 1st edition DMG had a great table for figuring out base rates and adding xp based on special abilities. I don't think such a chart/tool was ever in the 3rd ed DMG...

 

[JoeGKushner]

No, I know very well that you have five eyes.

Who told!!!

 

[Knightfall]

At the same time, I want to make my position clear:

I agree with the concept of designing monsters to be monsters.

I also really, really hope that they will be prompt about converting monsters into "PC format", as much as possible, as often as possible, because I love having the option.

Quite honestly, this is pretty fertile ground for D&D Insider. Perhaps even a regular column - alternating "obvious" choices like hobgoblins and minotaurs with more esoteric options like yuan-ti purebloods or driders.

Your suggestion that D&D Insider be used to create the rules for monsters as PCs just amplifies my point.

Not Everyone Will Want To Use D&D Insider!

And if I have to have access to D&D Insider in order to get the rules for playing monsters as PCs (or any other rules I consider vital to my game) then WotC has lost me a customer.

 

[MerricB]

Ironically enough, the 1st edition DMG had a great table for figuring out base rates and adding xp based on special abilities. I don't think such a chart/tool was ever in the 3rd ed DMG...

We sort of got it in the 3.5e MM, which went into more detail about what CR meant.

I'm not really that enamoured of the 1e table. It worked as a way of awarding XP, but not much beyond that.

Cheers!