Complete Scoundrel Here

[Felon]

A move action to stand up is ease in anyone's dictionary.

If you stand up, it blows your chance to make a full attack, and causes you to suffer an AoO. How is that easy mitigation? One guys getting full rounds of attacks plus an attack of opportunity, the other only gets one attack or stays on the ground and suffers big penalties. Pretty harshly lopsided.

Your description is appropriate for an epic fighter tripping a kobold, it's not how the game actualy plays out however. If your character can easily trip the opponent, in most cases the opponent is seriously overmatched and could be beaten any number of ways.

It takes an epic level fighter against a kobold to make trip attacks effective? Once again, you're demonstrating a penchant for wild exaggeration. Let's look at the numbers.

A human fighter with an 18 Strength attempts to trip another human fighter with an 18 Strength. It's a straight-up +4 check versus a +8 check. The two characters even in levels and ability, yet the advantage is heavily weighted to the attacker. Which would be OK if there was some common defense against getting tripped that a character could avail himself of (other than "become a dwarf"), but there hasn't been previously. Now there's at least a skill trick that can be used once per encounter.

 

[blargney the second]

A wolf/worg has a heck of a time A) getting a hit, B) getting the trip off. Say 1 in 8 attacks against a fighter type of around level 5. (AC 21, STR 16 has a >20% chance of being tripped by a worg, >7% by a wolf).

That would be a somewhat weak feat (I'd say twice/encounter would be reasonable). But for 2 skill points? It's nothing.

A fighter 5 can't have the trick you're talking about. The prerequisite is 12 ranks in Tumble. That means that *nobody* can get it before level 9. A 1st level wizard isn't going to meet the prerequisites for the Archmage PrC, so there's no point in talking about its abilities being teh b0rken for him.

In the game I'm currently playing in we've eliminated cross-class skills, and my character gets 13 skill points per level at 9th level. I still can't meet the prerequisites for the tricks that I want the most. There are significant barriers to entry on tricks, depending how you've built your character in the past.
-blarg

 

[Harm]

It takes an epic level fighter against a kobold to make trip attacks effective? Once again, you're demonstrating a penchant for wild exaggeration. Let's look at the numbers.

The wild exaggeration is your own, I merely pointed it out.

A human fighter with an 18 Strength attempts to trip another human fighter with an 18 Strength. It's a straight-up +4 check versus a +8 check. The two characters even in levels and ability, yet the advantage is heavily weighted to the attacker. Which would be OK if there was some common defense against getting tripped that a character could avail himself of (other than "always play dwarves"). Now there's at least a skill trick.

Ignoring the chance for the attack to miss anyway, the fighter with the feat will have... 32% chance of landing on his ass. Thats not "heavily weighted to the attacker." A 32% chance of having an attack not only wasted, but having it end up backfiring and putting you in the situation you tried to put the opponent. And the last time my fighter had an opponent that he wanted to trip that wasn't either larger and/or stronger I can't even remember.

 

[Harm]

Okay... on first glance, Magic Appraisal turning detect magic into a 1 minute, pearl-free identify is a "must have", so are the two skills that make your spells un-counterable (although they at least have hard to get requirements.) Every rogue will take Acrobatic Backstab and use it every chance they can. Back on your Feet likewise is very powerful and pretty much a no-brainer to take. Swift Concentration is (no pun) a no-brainer. Clarity of Vision is pretty much a must-have depending on your campaign as well.

Those skills are easily as or more powerful than many feats.

Nimble Stand is probably what Back on your Feet was MEANT to be but BoYF got left in as a typo, and is still pretty good.
Collector of Stories seems to be a no-brainer depending on your GM's play style.
Spot the Weak Point and Timely Misdirection are powerful for certain characters.

With the huge number of skill points some classes get, and the power of these skills being on-par with feats, it becomes pretty unbalancing. No doubt future books will include more and it will only get worse.

 

[JustKim]

Okay... on first glance, Magic Appraisal turning detect magic into a 1 minute, pearl-free identify is a "must have"

Divine spellcasters can cast identify without a material component. A divine spellcaster can also make a wand of identify without having to invest material components, and since wands are type-inspecific, wizards can use them. 375 gp and 30 XP or 22 ranks in 3 skills, at least one of which is going to be cross-class?

Every rogue will take Acrobatic Backstab and use it every chance they can.

Once per encounter. Tumbling is an action, so you can only make one sneak attack. Using Bluff to feint can be used indefinitely.

Back on your Feet likewise is very powerful and pretty much a no-brainer to take.

Because it can negate one trip once per encounter at 9th level? You can't be tripped if you're not on the ground, and most 9th level parties are capable of flight. Tripping stops being a harrowing tactic early in an adventurer's career.

Clarity of Vision is pretty much a must-have depending on your campaign as well.

One person sees one invisible creature if it's within 30 feet and only for one round. You must be 9th level, when such spells as see invisibility, glitterdust and invisibility purge come cheap.

Those skills are easily as or more powerful than many feats.

That's true, a lot of feats aren't worth taking. That's why I think skill tricks are a great idea.

You guys are overreacting. Skill points are far from valueless, you can only have one skill trick per two character levels, and what I can accomplish cheaper, not to mention 6 levels earlier, is far from a "no-brainer".

 

[Felon]

Ignoring the chance for the attack to miss anyway, the fighter with the feat will have... 32% chance of landing on his ass. Thats not "heavily weighted to the attacker." A 32% chance of having an attack not only wasted, but having it end up backfiring and putting you in the situation you tried to put the opponent.

How do you come up with a 32% chance? With a +4 edge, the attacker only has a 35% chance of the attempt simply failing. Then on the couter-trip, it's 50/50.

And the last time my fighter had an opponent that he wanted to trip that wasn't either larger and/or stronger I can't even remember.

Guess that varies from campaign to campaign. I've played in one where all the DM every threw at the players were big monsters, but I've played in more campaigns where players faced a variety of foes, including plain ol' humans.

 

[Felon]

With the huge number of skill points some classes get, and the power of these skills being on-par with feats, it becomes pretty unbalancing. No doubt future books will include more and it will only get worse.

Speaking from personal experience, I have a scout that gets 10 skill points per level and I gotta tell you, I don't sit around with points left to burn. Hide, Move Silently, Escape Artist, Tumble, Search, Listen, Spot, and Disable Device are all skills that I have to keep maxed or nearly maxed out. Then I gotta try to have decent ranks in Jump, Climb, Balance, three Knowledge skills, Survival, Sense Motive, Open Lock, Ride, and Sleight of Hand. Sure, I might pick up some skill tricks, but it won't be painless or a no-brainer. And there's no way I'm going to have all these "must-haves".

 

[cignus_pfaccari]

Speaking from personal experience, I have a scout that gets 10 skill points per level and I gotta tell you, I don't sit around with points left to burn. Hide, Move Silently, Escape Artist, Tumble, Search, Listen, Spot, and Disable Device are all skills that I have to keep maxed or nearly maxed out. Then I gotta try to have decent ranks in Jump, Climb, Balance, three Knowledge skills, Survival, Sense Motive, Open Lock, Ride, and Sleight of Hand. Sure, I might pick up some skill tricks, but it won't be painless or a no-brainer. And there's no way I'm going to have all these "must-haves".

Ditto. You NEVER have enough skill points.

Brad

 

[Sir Brennen]

Sure. But that's still huge IMO. A wolf/worg has a heck of a time A) getting a hit, B) getting the trip off. Say 1 in 8 attacks against a fighter type of around level 5. (AC 21, STR 16 has a >20% chance of being tripped by a worg, >7% by a wolf). Getting up out of that is very very handy. Being able to do it before your action (so you didn't even get tripped) basically negates a certain type of attack, once per encounter.

Trip is a touch attack, which a fighter is probably going to have a pretty lousy one. Also, the Improved Trip feat that these creatures have give them an additional +4 on the roll. You state in one post that Trip is what makes wolves and worgs so powerful, then complain that it's really hard for them to do...

Also, negates once per encounter is not the same as utterly negates, which is what you stated previously.

That would be a somewhat weak feat (I'd say twice/encounter would be reasonable). But for 2 skill points? It's nothing.

2 skill points and 12 ranks in Tumble. That would be 26 (!) skill points for your fighter (who has to be a minimum of 9th level, as pointed out.) All to be able to freely stand once per encounter, which may not even come into play if he isn't knocked prone somehow.

 

[Harm]

Divine spellcasters can cast identify without a material component.

Only clerics with the magic domain, and as a second level spell, and it still takes an hour. Having the party wizard teleport to town to on pearl runs is a common occurence.

Because it can negate one trip once per encounter at 9th level? You can't be tripped if you're not on the ground, and most 9th level parties are capable of flight. Tripping stops being a harrowing tactic early in an adventurer's career.

Trip isn't the only way to end up prone, spells, special abilities, grapples and Dive For Cover feat are all common. Compare it to one of the better feats, say dodge. +1 to AC in some situations which will 95% of the time not stop an attack from hitting vs. completely preventing 1 (or more) attacks of opportunity and save you a move action in a situation which will happen occasionally. They give very comparable benefits, the difference is that a rogue might get 10+ skill points per level but only 1 feat every few.

One person sees one invisible creature if it's within 30 feet and only for one round. You must be 9th level, when such spells as see invisibility, glitterdust and invisibility purge come cheap.

It's as a swift action you can do every 10 rounds. So while checking for traps, wandering down a hall or in the middle of a fight etc. It gives a lot of the benefits that a permanent see invisibility would do.

The bottem line is that this book makes characters more powerful. I see nothing that makes them more interesting.