Complete Warrior preview & speculation

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

I am much more in favor of adding more optional core classes instead of the endless glut of overpowered PrCs. We still need a Unfettered/Swashbuckler class, a martial/wizard class, and a few more archetypes. Less PrCs more classes.

Why is everyone so down on PrC's?

Several reasons ...

You always have to modify them for you own campaign, they're often broken and/or poorly designed, there might be little reason to continue taking the base class with the PrC out, a spellcaster PrC might not cost any caster levels, a rogue PrC might not give up any sneak attack, a monk PrC might have the full-blown version of Student of Perfection, it's hard to introduce the PrC especially if it doesn't have an organization (where do all the Peerless Archers and Deepwood Snipers hang out anyway?), players annoy DMs by designing characters, from first level, who will take a PrC without even being introduced to the organization (if any) yet, etc.

For instance, suppose I want to play a cavalier who is a fighter, not a paladin. I want a better horse - no matter how much AC I give him, he'll quickly die. He needs more hp, better saves, and so forth.

Something makes me think that giving +12 HD or so to a horse is worth more than a couple of feats, and doesn't even fit the definition of a feat.

(Better Horse [Fighter] ... it doesn't work, IMO.)

So I'll be so happy to hear about a cavalier PrC ... until I see it. It gives out a better horse (yay!), reducing ACP to Ride check (cool), gives a +3 bonus to hit with lances (um...), doubles the damage of a lance on a charge and stacks with Spritied Charge (uh oh), gives me Swift Rider granting a +1 bonus to AC/3 PrC levels (huh?), lets me add my Strength modifier to Ride checks ... see where I'm going?

I'm being fed cheese, and that's not very flavorful.

(PS I'm just making this PrC up. There's probably one or more cavaliers out there, I've just never seen them.)

On a more positive note, those combat styles sound cool, as long as they take up feat slots. Aero DM might be right when he says it's just an excuse to boost power.

I don't know about Mass Combat ... Skip put out a good book on that already.

I will probably find Unearthed Arcana a better fit, provided they don't mess up the ranger and monk again (messing up includes bad flavor and gratuitous power-ups).

ValiantHeart, I like the idea of an Unfettered too, but if it could be done with a feat that's even better. I'd like to create an NPC eldritch knight without a huge Strength score, but that requires taking many more "Unfettered" levels than are really necessary. I would still pay a cost if I spend feats on Precise Strike, assuming something is done to prevent me from taking the feat three times at first level, and there's a limit on how many time I can take the feat, and so forth...

 

[Valiantheart]

Several reasons ...

ValiantHeart, I like the idea of an Unfettered too, but if it could be done with a feat that's even better. I'd like to create an NPC eldritch knight without a huge Strength score, but that requires taking many more "Unfettered" levels than are really necessary. I would still pay a cost if I spend feats on Precise Strike, assuming something is done to prevent me from taking the feat three times at first level, and there's a limit on how many time I can take the feat, and so forth...

I agree. I am all for feats becoming the foci of character customization but I am afraid that ship sailed at WOTC a long time ago.

 

[Tessarael]

Re: prestige problems

There are a large number of prestige classes and variations of the core classes, and often they are unbalanced. In retrospect, I think the 3E D&D designers would have been better off putting together more options to customize the classes. e.g. More feats, less class-specific features.

Maybe even going to a class-less system where people choose progression in each area (arcane spells, divine spells, BAB, skills, feats) at each level.

At this stage, the horse has long since bolted, and everyone offers new feats and new prestige classes. It's a real pain to evaluate these, and many DMs allow only core classes/feats to limit the number of alternatives they need to evaluate.

In any case, I think a reworking of 3E prestige classes with 3.5E ideas would not be a bad thing. They need a better Warrior/Rogue class, Spellsword is terrible in comparison to Eldritch Knight, and so forth. I think this would be more of a stop gap balancing measure than anything else.

Longer term, the designers really need to rethink how they want to do character customization in 4E D&D.

Just my thoughts ...

 

[jmucchiello]

I agree. I am all for feats becoming the foci of character customization but I am afraid that ship sailed at WOTC a long time ago.

If you're going to use the name of my PDF in a post, I'm going to plug it. Character Customization contains a system for generating core classes by mixing and matching the current ones.

 

[Olive]

Speculation:

Because you have more PrC's and feats than you can use in your entire lifetime. Add them up, and figure how long it takes for you to achieve 20th level and figure you how many feats and prc's you could put in that character.

You could never use them all!

Sure but how many NPCs do you throw at the characters over that time? And do you use every monster in the MM anyway?

Regardless, I suspect that some of those 36 will be 3.5 updates of the splatbook PrCs, so it's not like it's going to be 36 new PrCs. And, I'd like to see 36 new PrCs anyhow.

For the record, almost every NPC I throw at the party has some kind of PrC. It makes NPC creation more fun, and the players don't know what to expect from them. Only one of five players has any kind of PrC, with a second going for one.

 

[Valiantheart]

There are a large number of prestige classes and variations of the core classes, and often they are unbalanced. In retrospect, I think the 3E D&D designers would have been better off putting together more options to customize the classes. e.g. More feats, less class-specific features.

Maybe even going to a class-less system where people choose progression in each area (arcane spells, divine spells, BAB, skills, feats) at each level.

At this stage, the horse has long since bolted, and everyone offers new feats and new prestige classes. It's a real pain to evaluate these, and many DMs allow only core classes/feats to limit the number of alternatives they need to evaluate.

In any case, I think a reworking of 3E prestige classes with 3.5E ideas would not be a bad thing. They need a better Warrior/Rogue class, Spellsword is terrible in comparison to Eldritch Knight, and so forth. I think this would be more of a stop gap balancing measure than anything else.

Longer term, the designers really need to rethink how they want to do character customization in 4E D&D.

Just my thoughts ...

You make several excellent points.

I think the best thing for 4E would be to have 4 or so very generic base classes and then allow the player to customize them with something similar to a ability buy system. Not a completely classless system but one that allows for a far greater degree of customization.

Even with the current 3E rules all you really have is customization overlaid on 4 basic designs:
1) Big Bab, d10
2) Med Bab, d8
3) Med Bab, d6
4) Low Bab, d4
Everything else is just a few feats, hit points, skills, special abilities and spell casting mechanics.

 

[hong]

You make several excellent points.

I think the best thing for 4E would be to have 4 or so very generic base classes and then allow the player to customize them with something similar to a ability buy system. Not a completely classless system but one that allows for a far greater degree of customization.

Even with the current 3E rules all you really have is customization overlaid on 4 basic designs:
1) Big Bab, d10
2) Med Bab, d8
3) Med Bab, d6
4) Low Bab, d4
Everything else is just a few feats, hit points, skills, special abilities and spell casting mechanics.

Given that the last version of D&D to have four classes was Red Book BD&D, and every version since then has added more, you're swimming against the tide of history here.

 

[Mercule]

Even with the current 3E rules all you really have is customization overlaid on 4 basic designs:
1) Big Bab, d10
2) Med Bab, d8
3) Med Bab, d6
4) Low Bab, d4

This is one of the reasons I actually like the 3.5 Ranger. It introduces a Full BAB class that isn't a d10+ HD. It may not fit my vision of a Ranger, but I'm very, very happy to see them mixing up the BAB/HD association a bit.

 

[I'm A Banana]

*crosses his fingers that the PrC's won't jump beyond the base classes*

I'm all for new PrC's. SOMEONE may use them: you can never have enough optoins. It's a lot easier to say 'no' then it is to say 'sure, have me whip it up!'

Even with all the PrC's out there, I still have to create them...whether it's the Manipulator PrC for a telepath or a Bowslinger PrC for the dwarf who carries a holster of repeaters or a PrC for something setting-specific (such as the faction-based PrC's in my PS campaign).

There are never too many optoins. Ever.

 

[Ranger REG]

The thing is that some people perceive that WOTC are producing much of the same stuff. The 1995 stuff was spread over several campaign settings: Forgotten Realms, Mystara, Dark Sun, Planescape, Ravenloft, Birthright (something like half the entire BR line was released in 1995), Lankhmar, plus many core supplements (ironically, again including revised core books). Plus, as some people say, we're getting to a point of prestige class overload. Other than the PHB and MM, and maybe A&EG, I think every new book for D&D this year has contained prestige classes. It is getting kind of silly.

Perhaps we should poll this and see what gamers want most in a D&D supplement (new prestige classes, new skills & uses, new feats, new rules). While I won't wager my life savings, I predict the majority want new prestige classes.

Methink the overload stems from the third-party publishers' products, all wanting our money by offering their versions of desired prestige class concepts. Like there are several ship combat rules, there are many prestige class versions of pirates, mariners, buccaneers, sea dogs, etc.