D&D 5E Comprehend Languages Saves Lives

[Lanefan]

Frequency of usefulness isn't the metric; it's the power of what you can do with it.

Frequency of usefulness is a large part of what determines a spell's power level.

If a given spell is so useful that it's being prepared and cast every day, that's a good sign the spell might be overpowered either in relation to other spells of its level or - in some cases - overall.

In my mind being able to communicate in a language, and potentially influence others, is vastly more potent than merely understanding it.

But I could see moving Tongues to 2nd level.

See, there's a difference in philosophy: I'd rather move the 5e version of CL up in level than move Tongues down. 5e is already IMO too easy, no need to make it easier yet.

 

[iserith]

See, there's a difference in philosophy: I'd rather move the 5e version of CL up in level than move Tongues down. 5e is already IMO too easy, no need to make it easier yet.

Tell that to the Thursday night group in the original post whose characters all died.

If a group spends the session interviewing quirky, cagey NPCs and shopping, then it's pretty easy. If they are doing actual adventuring, then it's only as easy as the DM makes it. Same as it ever was.

The Thursday night group is going back in with new PCs: a fighter 2/forge cleric 1, divine soul sorcerer/celestial warlock 1, a totem barbarian 3 (not sure which totem yet), and a storm herald barbarian. No rogue, so they certainly haven't learned that lesson yet. But they will!

 

[Lanefan]

Tell that to the Thursday night group in the original post whose characters all died.

If a group spends the session interviewing quirky, cagey NPCs and shopping, then it's pretty easy. If they are doing actual adventuring, then it's only as easy as the DM makes it. Same as it ever was.

The Thursday night group is going back in with new PCs: a fighter 2/forge cleric 1, divine soul sorcerer/celestial warlock 1, a totem barbarian 3 (not sure which totem yet), and a storm herald barbarian. No rogue, so they certainly haven't learned that lesson yet. But they will!

That's a pretty front-heavy group - 2 barbarians and a fighter out of four total - I like it!

 

[Bill Zebub]

Frequency of usefulness is a large part of what determines a spell's power level.

That is...just so demonstrably wrong I don't know what to say. Detect magic? Shield? Light? Guidance?

(And if your response is how in the version of D&D you play guidance isn't a cantrip, I would ask you to look at the category the author of this thread selected.)

 

[Cruentus]

@Lanefan Thanks for the write up. And while there are 12 languages in my campaign ‘so far’, that is in the two starting countries where each of the parties are. As they move further afield, if they do, then they will be exposed to and have to deal with other languages, some which might have some similarity, but most won’t. I know I don’t have anywhere near the 120 you have. That sounds like a lot of fun.

 

[Lanefan]

That is...just so demonstrably wrong I don't know what to say. Detect magic? Shield? Light? Guidance?

Light? Definitely OP as a cantrip, as written. Fine as a 1st-level spell where there's a limit to how many times you can cast it in a day, but at least make them carry torches and lanterns for the first few levels until they can cast Continual Light!

Guidance? Not only OP as written, but IMO a bit too close to meta-currency design. Again, were it a) a 1st-level spell thus non-spammable and b) the d4 had to be rolled side-along with the check roll (thus in the fiction you're boosting the checker's ability before the check is made) then it'd be a lot better.

Detect Magic and Shield as 1st level spells are fine (I'd take the ritual tag off DM though...in fact I'd likely dispense with rituals altogether except for a very few exceptions), as they can't be spammed and prepping/using them must be balanced against prepping/using something else.

And if your response is how in the version of D&D you play guidance isn't a cantrip,...

Not only is it not a cantrip there, it doesn't exist at all.

 

[Bill Zebub]

Light? Definitely OP as a cantrip, as written. Fine as a 1st-level spell where there's a limit to how many times you can cast it in a day, but at least make them carry torches and lanterns for the first few levels until they can cast Continual Light!

Guidance? Not only OP as written, but IMO a bit too close to meta-currency design. Again, were it a) a 1st-level spell thus non-spammable and b) the d4 had to be rolled side-along with the check roll (thus in the fiction you're boosting the checker's ability before the check is made) then it'd be a lot better.

Detect Magic and Shield as 1st level spells are fine (I'd take the ritual tag off DM though...in fact I'd likely dispense with rituals altogether except for a very few exceptions), as they can't be spammed and prepping/using them must be balanced against prepping/using something else.

Not only is it not a cantrip there, it doesn't exist at all.

Ah, I see.

So if you were to re-write the game from the ground up, according to your specifications, then in that imaginary system the frequency with which a spell is useful would indeed correlate to its level. Now I understand.

But, again, we are talking about 5e.

 

[iserith]

Light? Definitely OP as a cantrip, as written. Fine as a 1st-level spell where there's a limit to how many times you can cast it in a day, but at least make them carry torches and lanterns for the first few levels until they can cast Continual Light!

So the issue here is you're comparing a very specific game to another game that isn't the same thing! It could be said that early editions of D&D were often truly built around survival horror in a dungeon. That's not what D&D 5e is, at least by default, so making this sort of comparison is completely irrelevant.

Guidance? Not only OP as written, but IMO a bit too close to meta-currency design. Again, were it a) a 1st-level spell thus non-spammable and b) the d4 had to be rolled side-along with the check roll (thus in the fiction you're boosting the checker's ability before the check is made) then it'd be a lot better.

It's not really "spammable" in the sense it can only apply to a roll meant to resolve a single task that takes a minute or less to accomplish. The cost of guidance is that you can't take some other useful cantrip since you have a limited number at any given level. It's certainly useful though, but any task that takes longer than a minute - and that's at the discretion of the DM - can't benefit from guidance.

 

[iserith]

UPDATE:

The Thursday night group went in again - 2 barbarians, 1 sorcerer/warlock, and a light cleric.

Only the light cleric made it out alive.

Once more, they struck too deeply into enemy territory in pursuit of fleeing kobolds, ending up in the audience chamber of their chieftain, Meepa, Bastard of Venthavaxus (a half-red dragon kobold). She burned down the raging barbarians with her fire breath as kobolds swarmed in from all five doors in her throne room. The sorcerer/warlock dug in to try to save the dying barbarians as the light cleric led the tactical retreat to the rear. It was all for naught as the sorcerer/warlock was also overrun and slain.

They try again next Thursday.

 

[Lanefan]

UPDATE:

The Thursday night group went in again - 2 barbarians, 1 sorcerer/warlock, and a light cleric.

Only the light cleric made it out alive.

Once more, they struck too deeply into enemy territory in pursuit of fleeing kobolds, ending up in the audience chamber of their chieftain, Meepa, Bastard of Venthavaxus (a half-red dragon kobold). She burned down the raging barbarians with her fire breath as kobolds swarmed in from all five doors in her throne room. The sorcerer/warlock dug in to try to save the dying barbarians as the light cleric led the tactical retreat to the rear. It was all for naught as the sorcerer/warlock was also overrun and slain.

They try again next Thursday.

Hopefully the Light Cleric is now back in town a) recruiting a new party around herself, b) paying attention to that new party's makeup in terms of what went wrong last time plus any tales she may have heard about the time before, and c) recruiting purely from an in-character perspective rather than a metagame one.

By the last I mean if she in her wisdom (she's a Cleric, I assume she has some!) thinks the party could do with a sneak or scout but nobody at the table wants to play one, that shouldn't matter: she goes out and recruits a sneak/scout anyway because that's what the wise character would do. (and yes, this means putting an NPC adventurer in the party)