CONAN Is Finally Here!

After appearing three years running in the 10 Most Anticipated RPGs of the Year list, it seems that Conan's streak has come to and end - because Conan: Adventures in an Age Undreamed Of has been released! You can get it right now from Modiphius' web store, and will be able to get it elsewhere from tomorrow. PDF only, for the moment. You can also grab a book of six adventures, Jewelled Thrones of the Earth. Conan: Adventures in an Age Undreamed of is based on Modiphius' own 2d20 system (which also powers their upcoming Star Trek Adventures game). The book is now available for review in the reviews area.

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[CapnZapp]

He was asked to by others (including the board's admin) to explain why; he then didn't explain, instead simply restating his (to me illogical based upon the evidence he's given) hate...

Sorry there is no such thing as "illogical" taste preferences.

Let's just accept that Moephius inclusion of meta mechanics is (somewhat?) controversial, that the labelling of meta mechanics as controversial is (apparently) itself controversial and move on.

(This thread was supposed to be a "plus" thread about the awesomesauce that is Conan, remember )

 

[Igwilly]

I'm quite on the fence regarding meta-game mechanics. Some I like, others I hate.
For example, I'm ok with 13th Age's meta-game mechanics, but I hated D&D 5e's inspiration mechanic. I don't quite know why.

With that said, is the game good? Does the game simulates the old Sword & Sorcery genre? Because my D&D games end up way much different from that.
Perhaps this is a game I would buy. But the price...
I do not buy games to see musculous men scantly-clad in hide, but I could ignore that if the game is good ^^

 

[Drugged Dwarf]

Just a heads up, because someone asked: Modiphius are still selling pledges on their webstore - specifically the PRint and PDF master bundle that gives you the core book and the PDFs of all the other books.

Okay statement made please carry on talking about funky meta mechanics.

 

[slygeek]

I think most you (even the ones defending 2d20's "Meta-Game" mechanics) are missing the point behind those mechanics.

I think over the years, especially recently from D&D play-test surverys, is that Story-telling and Roleplaying are at heart of an RPG.

Some aspects of the "Meta-Game" mechanics of the 2d20 system are aimed specifically at enhancing Story-telling. Such as troop reinforcements and environmental effects.

For Mutant Chronicles (the original 2d20 system game) the mechanic is called Dark Symmetry. And frankly the game just wouldn't function well without it, because the Dark Symmetry is so interwoven into the Setting. If fact the characters are supposed to understand the presence of Dark Symmetry almost as something tangible. Its necessary to feel that impending doom always pervading among them.

In Conan, they just re-worded it to "Doom".

Where I believe Modiphius went wrong is they should have re-hired Jay Little, gone back to the drawing books and the designed a system from the ground up aimed specifically at Sword & Sorcery. So their "meta-game" mechanic should of been aimed at making Combat more visceral, brutal and cinematic. I think that would of had a better effect. Because when reading Conan, I don't get this pervading doom feeling on the horizon, but I do get the sense of brutality, a gritty dangerous feeling that you are on your own and nobody is going to save you.

You can't compare the "meta-game" mecahnics of Jay Little's 2d20 system to Savage Worlds, d20 Modern Action Points or anything. Because the meta-game mechanics in this case are specifically aimed at Story-telling. And that is a powerful tool for an RPG, because as state at the beginning, the heart of RPGs is Story-telling.

I understand that a "meta-game" mechanic that only adds a mathematical / gaming aspect to an RPG may be controversial. But Doom / Dark Symmetry is just so far from that camp that they can't be considered even in the group.

Take the Star Wars be FFG (also designed by Jay Little), the Destiny "meta-game" mechanic is specifically designed at replicating the FORCE. And the characters know and understand the Force as something very real in the universe. Add Triumph and Despair (also meta-game mechanics) to the mix and you get incredible Story-telling effects that oh-so much screams the feeling of Star Wars.

My point is.

Several modern games understand that hey, were playing a Roleplaying game where the focus is Story-telling. Why not include rules that ENHANCE and ENCOURAGE the Story-telling?

This is why I think games like *cough* D&D *cough* are in fact dinosaurs. Because they make no such attempt. In fact, all the mechanics are only aimed at combat and skill resolution.

2d20 is miles ahead. Its controversial, because its ahead of its time.

I'm telling you, RPGs that actually push Roleplayng and Story-telling in its mechanics are the future. Because in the end, they simply result in a better more engaging roleplaying/story telling experience which we agree is at the heart of Roleplaying.

Cudos to 2d20 and Jay Little's genius and for Modiphius to take a leap in this direction.

 

[slygeek]

Call it "pipi Caca" or "dodo poo doo" mechanic. If the mechanic enhances the story-telling or roleplaying experience or the enjoy-ability of the game as whole. How can you even begin to call it a "bad mechanic" ?

I think the problem is that some of us are categorizing "Doom" in this "Meta-Game" group, and thus giving it a bad undeserving name.

Calculating monster his points to see how much hit points the next monster will have, that is meta-gaming. Have 'powers' (ei 4th edition) that push monsters back and forth on a battle-grid , that is meta-gaming. And these are bad things imo, because they disconnect you from the roleplaying/storytelling and put the G in RPG at the forefront.

Mechanics that enhance story-telling, that is not bad, its innovative. Its trying something different to get a better experience. Doom may not have been the best choice but at least it has positive effects in the right direction.

 

[Water Bob]

I think most you (even the ones defending 2d20's "Meta-Game" mechanics) are missing the point behind those mechanics.

I think over the years, especially recently from D&D play-test surverys, is that Story-telling and Roleplaying are at heart of an RPG.

Some aspects of the "Meta-Game" mechanics of the 2d20 system are aimed specifically at enhancing Story-telling. Such as troop reinforcements and environmental effects.

For Mutant Chronicles (the original 2d20 system game) the mechanic is called Dark Symmetry. And frankly the game just wouldn't function well without it, because the Dark Symmetry is so interwoven into the Setting. If fact the characters are supposed to understand the presence of Dark Symmetry almost as something tangible. Its necessary to feel that impending doom always pervading among them.

In Conan, they just re-worded it to "Doom".

Where I believe Modiphius went wrong is they should have re-hired Jay Little, gone back to the drawing books and the designed a system from the ground up aimed specifically at Sword & Sorcery.

EXACTLY!

THIS MAN HAS IT.

ABSOLUTELY.

I AGREE 11,000% (with the above).



And, I've said as much before on other threads. The 2d20 Mechanic is fine for the game it was designed, Mutant Chronicles. But, there is nothing like "Dark Symmetry" in the Hyborian Age. The mechanic no longer makes sense in within the game's universe. There is no Ying and Yang, Karma, balance of Good and Evil or Law and Chaos present in the Conan stories.

The DOOM mechanic doesn't make sense. The notion of a character gaining a bonus now but at the price of the rest of the group being penalized later is not a concept that defines Conan's world (or is present in any Howard Conan story).

The Modiphius guys shoehorned a game mechanic that was specifically created for a very different game universe into Conan's world, and it doesn't make sense.








I find it extremely...what's the word...ironic? That a game created by Conan scholars and Howard purists would use a game system that is such a bad fit with the Hyborian Age.

I suspect that the writers and designers had no choice in the game mechanic other than to mold 2d20 to their needs. My guess is that Modiphius said, "You've got to use some version of the 2d20 system because that's what we've decided is going to be our house system." And, that was that.

I also suspect that we'd have A TON of people raving about the new Conan rpg had they created or gone with a more traditional system that actually made sense within the universe of the Hyborian Age.

 

[Water Bob]

2d20 is miles ahead. Its controversial, because its ahead of its time.

But, this part of what Sly said, I don't agree.

All the story element is in the game is a dicing trigger. When the trigger happens, it's the green light to implement an effect.

This has been a part of roleplaying for a long, long time.

EGG talks about a DM interpreting dice rolls and describing effects in the AD&D DM's Guide of 40 years ago.

Lots of games have mechanics where "when this is rolled" (trigger), "then this happens" (effect).

With 2d20, the triigger is momentum and high success. "Hey, look what I rolled!" That's the trigger. It's the signal that you get to make up something different or extra about what your character is doing. What you make up is the effect.

That's no different than rolling a Critical Hit in 3E D&D (trigger) that causes extra damage (effect).

It's no different than several mechanics in the Mongoose Conan game, like an attacker rolling exactly the number of his foe's AC (trigger), as this indicates that the two have locked blades. The attacker is given a free sunder attempt on his foe's weapon, and if the weapon resists, the two are locked in a test of STR, pushing and pulling their swords against each other (effect).

There's nothing innovative about it. This design as been around a long time.

The only thing that I can think of that is maybe a little bit different is that the effect is not combat or skill oriented all the time. Story results are encouraged.





From my point of view, the Mechanic is not liberating at all. Rather, it's a straightjacket. It's more restrictive than, say, a standard D&D game (thinking of 3E, since that's what I play).

1. It trains the players to be creative only when the dice trigger it.

2. It can be seen as limiting the GM's control on the game--especially if the GM has to wait for the players to generate DOOM points before he can implement certain parts of his story.

3. In D&D, it is sometimes fun to go into a town and roleplay with the local merchant for supplies. Then, at other times, the ebb and flow of the game, as measured by the DM, dictates that dragging out yet another miscellaneous roleplay with a merchant would bore the players and slow the pace of the game, making it less interesting for the players. Dice have no way of measuring whether its time to have a cool story element or just dice-n-go. I've seen 2d20 GMs report how the dice indicate a big success but everyone at the table is fresh out of ideas but feel pressured by the dice to "come up with something". I've also heard about the same effect (the same story element) being used, over and over, when triggered by the 2d20 dice. The point is: Sometimes, in an rpg, you just want to dice it and keep on moving, and the 2d20 mechanics are not always in on that game plan.

 

[Water Bob]

CONSTRUCTIVE THOUGHT ON 2D20....DOOM POINTS...AND BOON POINTS

I've often thought about how to "fix" the meta-game aspect of the 2d20 system, as far as the Conan rpg is concerned. It's a hard nut to crack because the 2d20 is designed around that give-n-take relationship, where players build DOOM, and the GM uses DOOM to enhance obstacles down the road.

Here's a thought that I have. Let me put it out on the porch and see if the Cat will lick it up.

In other words, let's discuss, if you are so inclined.





What if DOOM was limited to an adventure? Remove the part where players generate DOOM. A GM is given a number of DOOM points to spend for the entire adventure, and that's it.

First off, players wouldn't know the number of DOOM the GM has. They can't see it or count it as they can in standard 2d20, and that would remove that meta-game aspect.

An adventure's difficulty could be measured by how many DOOM points the GM has to use in that game. It would be like a level 1-3 dugneon versus a level 4-6 dungeon. The GM has X number of DOOM he can use for this adventure. If he wants to make the adventure harder because there are five PC going through the adventure rather than the four the scenario was designed for, then the GM can add Y number of DOOM points to his total for the adventure, to make the adventure harder.

Something like that would pretty much remove the Meta-Game aspect from the game. DOOM points become the level of difficulty.






BOON Points.

As for players, they would need a new pool. Where in standard 2d20 they buy extra dice and such by paying the GM DOOM. Here, we would slightly change that so that players take from a limited pool--again this considered part of the difficulty.

The difficulty of an adventure would be measured by how many DOOM points the GM gets to use, and how man (I'll call them) BOON points, the players get to use.

Should the player know how many points the players get in the BOON pool? I don't know. We should discuss this. They will know when they've used all of them, of course. Maybe we leave it up to the GM to decide whether he lets the players know how many points are in the BOON pool.

Once all the BOON points are gone, then the player can no longer "buy" extra dice for tasks.





What do you guys think about this?

I'm thinking that, if this works, I might actually buy the game, as it will remove the problems I have with the game.

A big question will be working out how many BOON points and DOOM points players and GMs need, on average, to complete adventures.

Thoughts?

 

[Caliburn101]

It's meta-game aspect.

Player Fred can generate a lot of DOOM at Monday night's game when he decides to charge a group of bad guys single handed.

The GM scoops up all these DOOM points and keeps them.

Three game sessions later, a different player, George, has his thief try to sneak into the enemy compound. And, this is where the GM decides to use all of his DOOM points...

I really don't think you have played the game considering the details of the post, and further, you've made the naysayers central assumption that the GM is the kind of person who plays against the players, and isn't interested in making the game fun, but a contest for dominance.

The rules talk about the uses of Doom... and as in ALL rpg's, behind a GM screen, any GM can be a dick - no-one sees their rolls.

In a game where the GM is running the game for the enjoyment of their players, Doom is an entirely decent mechanic. You may not like metagame mechanics, but that is not what you are criticising - you are conflating BAD GM'ing with a mechanic that you are claiming is somehow 'responsible' for that happening.

Bad GM'ing is facilitated by any rules system, and good GM'ing will use any set of rules and still produce a good game.

It is not fair to blame one for the other.

 

[Drugged Dwarf]

BOON Points.

Just to jump in here: I like what you're saying, but I really do not think the game needs MORE tokens.

You already have Fortune, Momentum, and Doom. Adding more things to keep track of will just make everything feel worse.

Instead, you really are better off going for the whole 'Remove doom' from your game completely if you don't like it. Will it make other talents obsolete? Yes, but:
1 - Those talents are few and far between
2 - the major use would be the generating of doom to block or dodge attacks, but you could have a MUCH gritter game by making the defender give the opponent momentum in order to dodge.
3 - when you would do something with doom, you could replace it with Momentum or Fortune.

I still do not mind the doom mechanic NEARLY AS MUCH AS EVERYONE, nor do I fantatically believe it is the new state of gaming.

I just think it's cool, its unique enough, and I honestly have no problem with it (this is my disclaimer that I don't hate it, and I also would gladly take a look at options if someone came up with a better/worse way of using it.)

Once again, just my two cents. I would like to however get past our constant Doom levels and speak about the combat system itself. Anyone played through it properly yet?