Concealment and fog spells

[Pickaxe]

I would like some clarification on how concealment works with spells like Obscuring Mist and Fog Cloud. The description of OM says "A creature five feet away has concealment." Fog Cloud likewise says, "A creature within five feet has concealment." Clearly, two creatures within the foggy area have concealment relative to each other when they are in adjacent squares and total concealment when farther apart. How does it work when one creature is in the fog and one is outside? For example:

A halfling druid and a dwarven ranger have their camp attacked by goblins at night. The halfling casts obscuring mist. The dwarf is within the mist and moves to its edge, i.e., he is in the mist, but there are adjacent squares with out mist. The dwarf fires his bow at a goblin, whom he can see with darkvision. Or can he? He is within the mist; does it obscure his vision so as to provide concealment for the goblin?

The halfling moves to edge of the mist and casts Faerie Fire on a goblin. (Let's assume he can Spot him in the shadows, or perhaps he first tosses a stone with a Light spell out to provide some illumination.) Does the mist affect his ability to target the goblin with the spell? If not, does the goblin lose concealment to the druid and the ranger, even when they are in the mist (at the edge, or even deeper)? If the goblin moves into the mist, does he gain concealment, or will it be negated by faerie fire?

--Axe

 

[sfedi]

I would like some clarification on how concealment works with spells like Obscuring Mist and Fog Cloud. The description of OS says "A creature five feet away has concealment." Fog Cloud likewise says, "A creature within five feet has concealment." Clearly, two creatures within the foggy area have concealment relative to each other when they are in adjacent squares and total concealment when farther apart.

Exactly.

How does it work when one creature is in the fog and one is outside? For example:
A halfling druid and a dwarven ranger have their camp attacked by goblins at night. The halfling casts obscuring mist. The dwarf is within the mist and moves to its edge, i.e., he is in the mist, but there are adjacent squares with out mist. The dwarf fires his bow at a goblin, whom he can see with darkvision. Or can he? He is within the mist; does it obscure his vision so as to provide concealment for the goblin?

Note that the concealment is provided because of the amount of fog between the creatures.
So, someone in the exterior squares of a fog, wouldn't have concealment nor others (in the exterior) will be concealed.
Someone with one square of fog between him and the creature, but less than two squares, would have concealment.
Further inside the fog, total concealment applies.

4 ft or less of fog between targets, no concealment.
5-9 feet of fog between targets, concelament.
10 ft or more between targets, full concealment.

The halfling moves to edge of the mist and casts Faerie Fire on a goblin. (Let's assume he can Spot him in the shadows, or perhaps he first tosses a stone with a Light spell out to provide some illumination.) Does the mist affect his ability to target the goblin with the spell? If not, does the goblin lose concealment to the druid and the ranger, even when they are in the mist (at the edge, or even deeper)? If the goblin moves into the mist, does he gain concealment, or will it be negated by faerie fire?

I couldn't follow you with this.
You introduce too many varying factors/variables, and I'm sleepy, so I'll let other posters answer this, or I'll come back later, after some rest

 

[Pickaxe]

Exactly.


Note that the concealment is provided because of the amount of fog between the creatures.
So, someone in the exterior squares of a fog, wouldn't have concealment nor others (in the exterior) will be concealed.
Someone with one square of fog between him and the creature, but less than two squares, would have concealment.
Further inside the fog, total concealment applies.

4 ft or less of fog between targets, no concealment.
5-9 feet of fog between targets, concelament.
10 ft or more between targets, full concealment.

But notice that your interpretation here differs from the interpretation for two characters in the fog: when they are adjacent, they are concealed, when they are any farther apart (at least one foggy square between them), they have total concealment. I agree that the number of foggy squares is key, but the interpretation for two adjacent foggy characters suggests that, if only one was foggy, he at least would have concealment. Given that, my question is, does the other character have concealment?

I couldn't follow you with this.
You introduce too many varying factors/variables, and I'm sleepy, so I'll let other posters answer this, or I'll come back later, after some rest

Sorry, it was really meant to be another example of the same question, throwing in whether faerie fire would negate concealment from fog.

--Axe

 

[sfedi]

4 ft or less of fog between targets, no concealment.
5-9 feet of fog between targets, concelament.
10 ft or more between targets, full concealment.

But notice that your interpretation here differs from the interpretation for two characters in the fog: when they are adjacent, they are concealed, when they are any farther apart (at least one foggy square between them), they have total concealment. I agree that the number of foggy squares is key, but the interpretation for two adjacent foggy characters suggests that, if only one was foggy, he at least would have concealment.

Not at all. (note that I assumed that one of the creatures were out of the fog)
The numbers I gave you are consistent with your ruling of concelament within a Fog:
Between two adjacent squares, there are 5 feet, so, they are concealed from each other (all squares within fog).
Between two creatures with one square between them, they are 10 feet apart, thus, total concealment from each other (all squares within fog).

Given that, my question is, does the other character have concealment?

If one character has concealment from the other, the other has concealment from him too. This is, if the concealment is provided by a fog.

Sorry, it was really meant to be another example of the same question, throwing in whether faerie fire would negate concealment from fog.

I would rule yes, although Fog is not explicitly mentioned as one of the concealment-providing-effects that a Faerie Fire can counter. Ask your DM.
Note that FF negates concealment, not total concealment, so a creature sufficiently deep into the fog, would still be totally concealed.
I'd probably adjudicate that a creature with FF would have concealment if 10-14 feet of fog in between.

 

[Hypersmurf]

If one character has concealment from the other, the other has concealment from him too. This is, if the concealment is provided by a fog.

Not sure I agree.

"When making a melee attack against an adjacent target, your target has concealment if his space is entirely within an effect that grants concealment."

The character in the fog is in a space entirely within an effect that grants concealment - he has concealment.

The character outside the fog is in a space that is not entirely within an effect that grants concealment - he has no concealment.

-Hyp.

 

[sfedi]

Where is that quote from Hyp?

 

[Pickaxe]

"When making a melee attack against an adjacent target, your target has concealment if his space is entirely within an effect that grants concealment."

The character in the fog is in a space entirely within an effect that grants concealment - he has concealment.

The character outside the fog is in a space that is not entirely within an effect that grants concealment - he has no concealment.

-Hyp.

Ah, this is what I was looking for. I now understand the logic of Sfedi's interpretation, but it was a question of whether or not that was how the rules worked. If the edge squares of a mist provided no concealment to creatures outside of the fog, it would greatly change the utility of fog spells. I do think that Sfedi's interpretation of Faerie Fire in fog makes sense as well.

We don't play that often, so we haven't dealt with this issue before. I'm trying to devise tactics to help protect our 3rd level party when camped at night, and Obscuring Mist seems to be one thing that might be useful, especially in conjunction with Faerie Fire. Thanks for the help!

--Axe

 

[sfedi]

3rd level and protection in a camp?

Try:
-Alarm, cast by the Wizard (since you need high caster level for it to be useful)
-try a Pearl of Power and some scrolls to compensate the spell slot lost of the Wizard
-Rope Trick is not useful for resting at these levels yet
-a High-caster level scroll of Alarm (although this is somewhat exepensive)

But all in all, Obscuring Mist is a good one of retreating of making foes hava a hard time targetting you (Fog Cloud is also a nice spell, since you obsure THEM instead of you)

 

[Hypersmurf]

Where is that quote from Hyp?

From Concealment, under Combat Modifiers in the PHB.

-Hyp.

 

[Pickaxe]

3rd level and protection in a camp?

Try:
-Alarm, cast by the Wizard (since you need high caster level for it to be useful)
-try a Pearl of Power and some scrolls to compensate the spell slot lost of the Wizard
-Rope Trick is not useful for resting at these levels yet
-a High-caster level scroll of Alarm (although this is somewhat exepensive)

But all in all, Obscuring Mist is a good one of retreating of making foes hava a hard time targetting you (Fog Cloud is also a nice spell, since you obsure THEM instead of you)

The party has four members: halfling druid, dwarf ranger 1/fighter 2, human cleric 1/wizard 2, and human ranger 1 (about to become ranger 1/rogue 1), plus the druid's riding dog companion. The cleric/wizard is a conjurer who typically prepares Summon Monster I multiple times; I don't think that Alarm is in his book. We're already out in the wilderness, and we actually need to rest for a day to get back some ability point losses. So, since the druid has the greatest spell power and flexibility, I'm trying to find ways to give us advantages in camp, especially if the encounter is beyond us. Obscuring Mist seems like a way to let us probe the enemy before fighting or fleeing.

--Axe