Why would you do that, if you wouldn't force a new player to start his character at first level? I wouldn't do the latter, but I'd still want NPCs (not monsters) to follow the same rules as PCs as much as possible.
D&D 5E Concentration mechanic can ruin plots in adventures
- Thread starter Helldritch
- Start date
Why would you do that, if you wouldn't force a new player to start his character at first level? I wouldn't do the latter, but I'd still want NPCs (not monsters) to follow the same rules as PCs as much as possible.
The Crimson Binome
Hero
Which is weird, because "as a PC" is one of the three methods of NPC generation endorsed in the DMG.
That's what I meant by "close enough" mechanics. It makes sense that thugs get multi-attack, because fighter-types have Extra Attack, and the similarity between the two concepts is close enough for players to buy into. Likewise, a tribal warrior is very similar to a barbarian, who can grant Advantage to melee allies while raging. And of course, the easiest method for a PC to acquire Magic Resistance is for them to put on a Robe of the Archmagi.
The game rules set out a language for describing how the world works, and in as much as the in-game reality between an archmage is similar to the in-game reality of a high-level wizard, the mechanical reflection of those in-game realities is equally similar. The rules set up an expectation for those NPCs to work that way.
The idea of someone maintaining multiple concentration spells at once is not within the concept-space described by the rule set. It's too out-of-left-field to expect players to go along with it.
Giltonio_Santos
Hero
Back in AD&D 2e, the Night Below villain uses potions of mind control to achieve what seems to be the goal of your villain. I think that would be ok by RAW. IIRC, you don't need to concentrate on a potion.
Nebulous
Legend
When I ran Princes of the Apocalypse I added a fifth secret cult that was dedicated to Tharizdun, three undead drow magicians called The Triad and they acted as one unit. Each specialized in a school of magic, a Necromancer, Conjurer and Evoker. It scared the bejeezus out of the 12th level party because they were raining down three spells a round simultaneously up to 8th level. Until I started to realize that the best spells were the Concentration spells, and ultimately that was the undoing of the Triad. I kept the concentration mechanic as written. If I had bent that rule slightly as NPCs who went by different rules, it probably would have been a TPK. The PCs survived it though, and eventually sent the Triad packing.
Swarmkeeper
Hero
When I first started DMing 5e, I tried to make my BBEG follow the rules of PC abilities and leveling. I tell you, that was a huge PITA and waste of time. None of the monsters follow the rules of PC abilities and leveling exactly, so I no longer worry about it. If I need my BBEG to have an ability, he has that ability or some single-use magic item that allows him to do that Thing that moves the plot/story/action along and/or provides some antics to entertain. I love the single use magic item since I pretty much always have it backfire slightly on the BBEG for a bit of comic relief. (I'm playing him a bit like an inept Strahd in that he - or a simulacrum - is constantly harassing the PCs throughout their development, sometimes escaping, sometimes being reduced to a pile of slush, but always building up the enmity of the party.)
Anyway, this might be glaringly obvious but... do what is fun for you and the players. Let's assume good faith here and the DM is not trying to "win": Giving an NPC special powers is not going to break the game. I'd say it's quite the opposite in that it makes the game more interesting and perhaps even more challenging.
Anyway, this might be glaringly obvious but... do what is fun for you and the players. Let's assume good faith here and the DM is not trying to "win": Giving an NPC special powers is not going to break the game. I'd say it's quite the opposite in that it makes the game more interesting and perhaps even more challenging.
TheCosmicKid
Hero
The one hiccup here is that he's a wizard. By the established in-universe logic, if he has a spell that can do a thing, the PCs should be able to access his spellbook and do the same thing. Make him a sorcerer and then you can just say "He unlocked this unique magical power, you can't do it because you don't have the same bloodline" and get on with the story.
Helldritch
Hero
Ok... I think some of you are really off the mark in understanding my point of view. Here is a recap.
1) Excapode comes from 2nd edition where a charm would last according to intel. Now, it is a save every round to end it. To by pass this, I would need to give Excapade something equivalent to the domination of a vampire on multiple targets. This would defeat the point of what is Excapode.
2) Excapode is NOT a BBEG type boss. He is a wimp, a twit, a weakling, that is using others to fight for him. He does not have lair action. He is not legendary. He's just a 10th level enchantor with a hole in his sanity.
3) The difficulty of the adventure was not in killing/capturing Excapode. It was doing so without killing the lawfull good group that was charmed by him.
4) Since he is such a wimp, giving him special powers kinda of defeat the spirit of what he is.
5) I know that I am not forced to make NPC follow the same power curve as the PC. I can give them just about any power if I so choose. That much is obvious. But I also like that players can replicate what monsters can do.
The problem is the concentration mechanic with charm. This mechanic prevents such an adventure to even exist. By the same token, you can not see the old plot of the charmed king doing such and such for months/years because sooner or later he would save during the hour or even within 10 minutes. In 1ed and 2ed, the average 10 intel character had a save every 3 weeks. In 5ed, in 10 minutes the same character gets over a 100 saves to get out of the charm! A 100 saves would have taken 300 weeks in previous editions.
The whole point of this is: Without doing something way far off of the spirit of this old adventure (where Excapode is a whimp) it is impossible to find a logical, non exagerated solution. Concentration was good in eleminating the power creep we saw in 3.xed but we also lost a few possible plots in the process.
1) Excapode comes from 2nd edition where a charm would last according to intel. Now, it is a save every round to end it. To by pass this, I would need to give Excapade something equivalent to the domination of a vampire on multiple targets. This would defeat the point of what is Excapode.
2) Excapode is NOT a BBEG type boss. He is a wimp, a twit, a weakling, that is using others to fight for him. He does not have lair action. He is not legendary. He's just a 10th level enchantor with a hole in his sanity.
3) The difficulty of the adventure was not in killing/capturing Excapode. It was doing so without killing the lawfull good group that was charmed by him.
4) Since he is such a wimp, giving him special powers kinda of defeat the spirit of what he is.
5) I know that I am not forced to make NPC follow the same power curve as the PC. I can give them just about any power if I so choose. That much is obvious. But I also like that players can replicate what monsters can do.
The problem is the concentration mechanic with charm. This mechanic prevents such an adventure to even exist. By the same token, you can not see the old plot of the charmed king doing such and such for months/years because sooner or later he would save during the hour or even within 10 minutes. In 1ed and 2ed, the average 10 intel character had a save every 3 weeks. In 5ed, in 10 minutes the same character gets over a 100 saves to get out of the charm! A 100 saves would have taken 300 weeks in previous editions.
The whole point of this is: Without doing something way far off of the spirit of this old adventure (where Excapode is a whimp) it is impossible to find a logical, non exagerated solution. Concentration was good in eleminating the power creep we saw in 3.xed but we also lost a few possible plots in the process.
Lanefan
Victoria Rules
Two points here:
First - in this case where you want to run an old-school adventure (or particularly if you want to run lots of them and-or just have a more old-school feel to your campaign) you might want to apply some old-school thinking while top-to-bottom rejigging how spells work in your 5e game. Maybe ditch concentration entirely; or for specific spells (charm obviously being one in this case). Maybe look at ditching the concept of save-every-round for some spells and go back to fixed durations. And so on, spell by spell - and yes, I'm well aware this is tedious work, having done it a few times myself.
Second - regarding the idea that NPCs and PCs work differently. If Excapode turns out here to be an aboleth or a vampire or some other not-available-as-PC creature then you're completely off the hook. But if Excapode is a normal Human wizard, and I'm playing a normal Human wizard as my PC, and I see him able to charm half a battalion all at once, I-as-player am immediately going to want to know how my character can do the same thing. Do I need more levels? Do I need a specific device he's using? Do I need to pillage his spellbook and learn whatever version of the charm spell he's got, as it's obviously much superior to mine? I'll make those inquiries of whoever might have answers - Wizards' guilds, Excapode's old associates, sages, etc. - along with looting him and his lair until I find his spellbook; and you-as-DM had better have a good answer that's consistent with the game's fiction or you're going to have one pissed-off player.
First - in this case where you want to run an old-school adventure (or particularly if you want to run lots of them and-or just have a more old-school feel to your campaign) you might want to apply some old-school thinking while top-to-bottom rejigging how spells work in your 5e game. Maybe ditch concentration entirely; or for specific spells (charm obviously being one in this case). Maybe look at ditching the concept of save-every-round for some spells and go back to fixed durations. And so on, spell by spell - and yes, I'm well aware this is tedious work, having done it a few times myself.
Second - regarding the idea that NPCs and PCs work differently. If Excapode turns out here to be an aboleth or a vampire or some other not-available-as-PC creature then you're completely off the hook. But if Excapode is a normal Human wizard, and I'm playing a normal Human wizard as my PC, and I see him able to charm half a battalion all at once, I-as-player am immediately going to want to know how my character can do the same thing. Do I need more levels? Do I need a specific device he's using? Do I need to pillage his spellbook and learn whatever version of the charm spell he's got, as it's obviously much superior to mine? I'll make those inquiries of whoever might have answers - Wizards' guilds, Excapode's old associates, sages, etc. - along with looting him and his lair until I find his spellbook; and you-as-DM had better have a good answer that's consistent with the game's fiction or you're going to have one pissed-off player.
Leatherhead
Possibly a Idiot.
It doesn't matter if Excapode has concentration or not. The 5e rules for the charmed condition don't make the charmed creatures attack for you. You would still have to make him different than a normal PC.
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