D&D 3E/3.5 Conceptual Problems with 3E/3.5E and Desired Solutions for 4E

[Upper_Krust]

Hey Keldryn!

I've got a couple of conceptualizations that I'd like to see changed, right off the bat:

Divine vs Arcane magic distinction. Get rid of it -- it's arbitrary in the first place and becomes more meaningless and meaningless over time. The only real driving "logic" behind it is that "wizards can't heal." There really isn't much more to it and as more new Cleric domains are created, there are fewer and fewer wizard-only spells left.

I agree to an extent.

What about having White (Divine) and Black (Arcane) magic spells. Wizards can choose Black magic spells as normal, but White Magic spells as a caster 1/2 their level. Vice versa for Clerics.

Druids/Shamen can choose both White or Black magic at 3/4 their level.

All of the "x times per day" stuff. It's completely arbitrary and illogical and creates goofy rationalization about how Elves only need 4 hrs of meditation to rest, but have to spend another hours doing NOTHING before they can prepare spells again. That's goofy. And spell-like or supernatural abilities that can only be used x times per day are even weirder, as it makes one wonder who or what exactly is imposing these limits?

Agreed. It should be a spell point system, and no more of this memorization jive.

Ack, it's getting late. I hope that was coherent. Basically, the bulk of the character's adventuring career will be spent in the advanced/specialized classes, while the basic classes will be left behind quickly (maybe only 3 levels of them). These more mundane basic classes could be integrated with some of the NPC classes as well, to streamline things a bit. There is only a certain degree of expertise than can be gained with that level of training, and anything higher than that roughly 3rd level requires advanced training and/or the extremes of life-or-death adventuring.

What the hell is the point of the core classes if everyone busts into Prestige Classes at 4th-level.

No one should be able to take a Prestige Class until 11th-level. Some, like Archmage should be Epic Prestige Classes and only available at 21st.

 

[painandgreed]

So... what are your biggest conceptual problems with 3E/3.5E? How would you like to see them addressed?

I'm pretty happy with 3.5 and in 4E simply want some cleaning up of trouble spots and prehaps reorg of contents.

One thing that bugs me is paying of XP to make magic items, or any other reason. It's a stupid mechanic and I don't think it serves its supposed purpose of balance. Some new item creation rules that allow a combination of spending time or money to create items. Power components would be nice but difficult to preform unless it was vert abstract or given a book.

Along with those new item creation rules, I'd also change cost for making master work and magic weapons. Base it instead on a percentage increase of the base cost of the weapon rather than a flat rate for everything.

I'd expand the XP system to give some sort of guideline for DMs to assign XP for non-combat challenges (including social challenges). Perhaps basing it off of the number and difficulties of rolls required as well as negative outcome incase of failure. Mess with social skills a bit while we're there to better define use of things like Bluff and Diplomacy.

Alternate XP chart for somebody who intends on playing a long campaign and doesn't want everybody at 20th level in a year. My current method is 1000 XP to make 2nd and 1.6 times what it took to make the last level to make the next.

Some other multi-class mechanic. Not sure what. 1E method was too powerful at higher levels and 3E a little too crippling, although I think allowing for a fractional increase in caster levels for non-spell casting levels would cure much of it.

That, plus errata, and some mechanics changes due to playtesting and player feedback and I'd have the game I want to play.

 

[Roman]

Regarding the discrepancy between a 1st-level mook and a 15th-level Fighter, what if humans (indeed all medium humanoids) had 3 racial Hit Dice before class levels are factored.

That way a 1st-level human guardsman (Fighter 1) would have 3d8 + 1d10 base hp.

Similarly this solves the survivability problems of low level characters, especially 1st-level Wizards.

The double edged sword is that Orcs would also have a base 3 HD.

Halflings would have a base 1 HD, while Gnomes would have a base 2.

Not bad - I do like this. I have recently proposed something similar though not quite the same - instead of hit dice I just proposed giving races extra starting hit points (essentially in a manner similar to hit dice but without the attendant skills, etcetera) depending on size. You may want to check out my hit point thread here: http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=187059

I also proposed decreasing the size of the normal hit dice to compensate for this at higher levels. High level characters have enough hit points as it is...

Still, adding hit dice might have some merit, since it fits more smoothly into the existing system where hit points are tied to hit dice. I am not sure, though, how starting skill points, BAB, saves and feats should then be handled though - whether these initial hit dice count towards them or whether we should stick with the base class determining these.

Also, these additional hit dice, should not be counted as levels for the purposes of reaching level 20 and epic levels.

Finally, I think the additional hit points gained at the outset would necessitate slowing the gaining of hit points by gaining levels.

Ultimately, the most logical system would give hit dice according to creature mass (in some rare instances modified for component material hardness and structural hardness) and divorce them from levels entirely, but I think for most people this would be a shift too far.

Lastly, I do like the idea, but I am not sure how you arrived at the number of giving humans 3 hit dice rather than say 2 hit dice or X hit dice. Yes, you have to start somewhere and then change hit dice according to the size of the race, but 3 hit dice seems to be an arbitrary number to give to medium humanoids.

 

[Keldryn]

What the hell is the point of the core classes if everyone busts into Prestige Classes at 4th-level.

The idea is that there would be a handful of basic classes that capped at a fairly low level, leaving more specialized/advanced roles to prestige classes and not having the core/base classes competing with the prestige classes at higher levels. Didn't say it was a brilliant idea, just was something I was thinking about. The purpose of the core classes would be just to prepare for the more advanced and specialized training to come.

No one should be able to take a Prestige Class until 11th-level. Some, like Archmage should be Epic Prestige Classes and only available at 21st.

I agree about the "Epic" prestige classes, or at least ones that should be restricted to higher-level characters.

It'd still rather see fewer classes in general with selection of feats and skills and multi-classing choices taking the place of overly specialized prestige (and base) classes. I'd like to be able to make a "swashbuckling" type of warrior by multiclassing Fighter with Rogue, and not needing to use a seperate "Swashbuckler" class to make it viable. There are getting to be a lot of specialized classes that are essentially a combo between two of the original classes but they don't get hosed as they get to higher levels.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Not bad - I do like this. I have recently proposed something similar though not quite the same - instead of hit dice I just proposed giving races extra starting hit points (essentially in a manner similar to hit dice but without the attendant skills, etcetera) depending on size.

Make them all Constructs!

-Hyp.

 

[Shalimar]

1)Hyper HP just break my ability to believe in the system, a man with 20 arrows sticking out of him walking around without a care. Jumping off a 200ft cliff because it can't possibly kill you.

I would replace the HP system with the following:
HP = Con + a size bonus + Level Bonus (+2/level martial, +1/level non-martial)

+5 for Medium
+10 for Large
+20 for Huge
Doubling for each size category

Instead of Hit Dice monsters and characters gain bonus hp per level based on their class.

2)Add a Class Defense Bonus
2.1) Switch Armor to DR

3)Remove iterative attacks, these are part of the reason for hyper inflated hit points, clear this up

4)Downgrade magical damage spells by a similair amount.

 

[Roman]

Regarding the idea of taking a scythe to the head of a sleeping 15th-level warrior.

What if we divided hit points into two categories: those derived from mass (ie. Hit Dice) and those derived from luck/skill/experience (ie. Class Levels).

In certain situations, stabbed while sleeping, sneak attacks*, falling into lava, falling off a cliff, you would bypass these ephemeral 'skill/luck' hit points.

*Using this method sneak attacks wouldn't actually do any more damage, but they would attack your 'real' hit points.

So the 15th-level human warrior will only have 3d8 + Con Bonus x 3 of real hit points and an extra 15d10 + Con Bonus x 15 'fake' hit points.

Once you do that, though, you have essentially changed the hit point system to a vitality/wound point system.

 

[RFisher]

Gosh, how would you react if someone used the Deflect Arrows feat to prevent being hit by a javelin?

^_^ That's not nearly as jarring. Although, I haven't had to live with it as long as the "cure" spells. ^_^

Don't get me wrong. It's not so much pedantry as just reaction. I try not to get caught up on the names for things.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hi Roman matey!

Not bad - I do like this. I have recently proposed something similar though not quite the same - instead of hit dice I just proposed giving races extra starting hit points (essentially in a manner similar to hit dice but without the attendant skills, etcetera) depending on size. You may want to check out my hit point thread here: http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=187059

I also proposed decreasing the size of the normal hit dice to compensate for this at higher levels. High level characters have enough hit points as it is...

Still, adding hit dice might have some merit, since it fits more smoothly into the existing system where hit points are tied to hit dice. I am not sure, though, how starting skill points, BAB, saves and feats should then be handled though - whether these initial hit dice count towards them or whether we should stick with the base class determining these.

I say use them, otherwise it just gets too confusing.

Also, these additional hit dice, should not be counted as levels for the purposes of reaching level 20 and epic levels.

I agree.

Finally, I think the additional hit points gained at the outset would necessitate slowing the gaining of hit points by gaining levels.

Ultimately, the most logical system would give hit dice according to creature mass (in some rare instances modified for component material hardness and structural hardness) and divorce them from levels entirely, but I think for most people this would be a shift too far.

Lastly, I do like the idea, but I am not sure how you arrived at the number of giving humans 3 hit dice rather than say 2 hit dice or X hit dice. Yes, you have to start somewhere and then change hit dice according to the size of the race, but 3 hit dice seems to be an arbitrary number to give to medium humanoids.

Actually this is a system I have in the Immortals Handbook: Epic Bestiary.

Basically you get:

1 HD/2 feet of 'height' (based on largest dimension in feet)

e.g.
Human = 3 HD
Ogre = 4 HD
Hill Giant = 5 HD
Storm Giant = 10 HD

2 HD/3 feet of 'height' (where there are 2 roughly equal dimensions)

e.g.
Elephant = 7 HD

1 HD/foot of 'height' (where all dimensions are roughly equal)

e.g.
Beholder = 8 HD

This system should not apply to Constructs (HD by minimum caster level), Fey, Outsiders or intelligent Undead.

EDIT: Meant to add that for exceptionally thin creatures (skeletons, snakes) you can use 1 HD/3 feet.

e.g.
Remorhaz = 6 HD
Giant Snake (10 ft.) = 3 HD
Skeleton (Human) = 2 HD
Skeleton (Storm Giant) = 7 HD

 

[Roman]

Hi Roman matey!

And hello to you also, U_K!

I say use them, otherwise it just gets too confusing.

I agree. My initial apprehension about these starting racial hit dice being full-blown hit dice with the attendant skill points and so on has disappeared now that I have considered the matter further. Apart from the good solution this offers for hit points and survivability of lower level characters, it eliminates the need for the 4 x skill point at 1st level, since each hit dice grants skill points anyway and conveniently there are exactly 3 such bonus hit dice.

As we both agree, the only thing these hit dice should not count towards is epic levels/ability to reach level 20. What we have not determined, though, is how this system would mesh with level advancement of races that have different numbers of racial hit dice, such as halflings or gnomes, or the bigger races such as ogres. Also, a major rebalancing of the races would be necessary.

Basically you get:

1 HD/2 feet of 'height' (based on largest dimension in feet)

e.g.
Human = 3 HD
Ogre = 4 HD
Hill Giant = 5 HD
Storm Giant = 10 HD

2 HD/3 feet of 'height' (where there are 2 roughly equal dimensions)

e.g.
Elephant = 7 HD

1 HD/foot of 'height' (where all dimensions are roughly equal)

e.g.
Beholder = 8 HD

This system should not apply to Constructs (HD by minimum caster level), Fey, Outsiders or intelligent Undead.

EDIT: Meant to add that for exceptionally thin creatures (skeletons, snakes) you can use 1 HD/3 feet.

e.g.
Remorhaz = 6 HD
Giant Snake (10 ft.) = 3 HD
Skeleton (Human) = 2 HD
Skeleton (Storm Giant) = 7 HD

Ok, I like this. It is elegant and produces convenient numbers, where medium humanoids get 3 hit dice - which ties in nicely to the 4 skill ranks at 1st level. The choice of 1 HD per 2 feet is somewhat arbitrary, but it does yield convenient numbers and that matters. I would certainly be satisfied with a system of this nature in 4E.

The only real issue I have with this system is that it gives high level characters even more hit points than they already have if it is combined with normal hit dice advancement per level (and it surely would be thus combined). In case of low level characters this is a good thing, but for high level characters, I would like to keep their hit points limited at most to the level they get now. I would suggest giving characters only half the size of their hit dice per level. So... Wizards/Sorcerers would get d2, Rogues d3, Clerics/Druids d4, Fighters/Paladins d5 and Barbarians d6 (or their alternative classes whatever they would be in 4E).