D&D 3E/3.5 Conceptual Problems with 3E/3.5E and Desired Solutions for 4E

[Nifft]

I have recently had a chance to run some Exalted, and the Resource system was an immense pain in the posterior. Resources 1 and 2 were too low to do anything significant with, and 4 and 5 were overwhelmingly powerful.

I would not wish that system on anyone.

Nor would I. I don't like the Exalted system as-is. But I do think it's the right way to go, and I'd like to see 4e get it right. Even if it does involve tracking some individual resources, the fewer the better.

I'm not playing a heroic fantasy game to be an accountant, but I still want a way to handle reasonable resource management.

Cheers, -- N

 

[Roman]

I rated every class feature and ability in terms of how many feats it was worth and then used 6 feats as equivalent to 1 ECL. PC level wealth is equal to 0.33 ECL per level.

Ok, adding up abilities is certainly a way to do this. But why is it 6 feats per level? I just don't see the login behind it.

I have found the 2:3 ratio works especially well in all circumstances.

Empirical testing is certainly sufficient, ao if it works this is fine.

Or you could just give those races extra levels. Theres nothing that says they have to be equal in terms of ECL.

Fair enough

A trifling matter.

Alright, so what is your solutions?

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hiya mate!

Ok, adding up abilities is certainly a way to do this. But why is it 6 feats per level? I just don't see the login behind it.

Playtesting has showed that 6 feats were roughly equal to one level.

Empirical testing is certainly sufficient, ao if it works this is fine.

In my experience it works perfectly.

Alright, so what is your solutions?

I don't think one is required.

 

[Clavis]

What needs to be changed for 4th Edition (IMHO):

1) Feats should be removed from the core rules, and made an optional rule. The inclusion of feats as a necessary part of the game has created a gross amount of power creep, and made the game needlessly complicated to run. Every feat represents an exception to the rules, and ultimately defeats the whole point of d20 as an elegant solution to the messy, contradictary rules of previous editions.

2) Skills should be made broader, more simple, and optional.

3) Reduce the complexity and power level of monters, so masses of magic items and bizarre feats are no longer required to defeat them. I like to see a return to stat blocks that human beings can reasonably create in their spare time. When even WOTC frequently gets their stat blocks wrong, something is VERY WRONG with the game. Also, eliminate the truly stupid and incoherant monsters with wide ranges of unconnected powers, that exist only to provide challanges to to the grossly over-powered characters the rules produce.

4) Get back to archetypical character abilities and roles. New players should recognize the player classes from history, literature and movies. This aids role playing, and cuts down on the time it takes to create characters. Rule of thumb: if the name of a character class doesn't tell the average person what that class can do, it's not archetypical.

5) NO MORE SPIKY ANYTHING! ALL ILLUSTRATIONS WILL FEATURE REALISTICALLY-SIZED WEAPONS THAT CAN ACTUALLY BE USED BY HUMANOIDS! NO MORE DOUBLE WEAPONS THAT WOULD KILL ANYONE THAT USED THEM! AND GODDAMMIT, ELVES ARE SUPPOSED TO BE PRETTY, NOT BUG-EYED ALIENS!

 

[DonTadow]

What needs to be changed for 4th Edition (IMHO):

1) Feats should be removed from the core rules, and made an optional rule. The inclusion of feats as a necessary part of the game has created a gross amount of power creep, and made the game needlessly complicated to run. Every feat represents an exception to the rules, and ultimately defeats the whole point of d20 as an elegant solution to the messy, contradictary rules of previous editions.

2) Skills should be made broader, more simple, and optional.

3) Reduce the complexity and power level of monters, so masses of magic items and bizarre feats are no longer required to defeat them. I like to see a return to stat blocks that human beings can reasonably create in their spare time. When even WOTC frequently gets their stat blocks wrong, something is VERY WRONG with the game. Also, eliminate the truly stupid and incoherant monsters with wide ranges of unconnected powers, that exist only to provide challanges to to the grossly over-powered characters the rules produce.

4) Get back to archetypical character abilities and roles. New players should recognize the player classes from history, literature and movies. This aids role playing, and cuts down on the time it takes to create characters. Rule of thumb: if the name of a character class doesn't tell the average person what that class can do, it's not archetypical.

5) NO MORE SPIKY ANYTHING! ALL ILLUSTRATIONS WILL FEATURE REALISTICALLY-SIZED WEAPONS THAT CAN ACTUALLY BE USED BY HUMANOIDS! NO MORE DOUBLE WEAPONS THAT WOULD KILL ANYONE THAT USED THEM! AND GODDAMMIT, ELVES ARE SUPPOSED TO BE PRETTY, NOT BUG-EYED ALIENS!

1. No feats? What makes one 4th level knight different from another 4th level knight. My suggestion would be to actually illiminate class abilities and rely more on class specific feats.

2. Easier how? Just ability scores? They've seemed to combine too many as it is.

3. Can't be helped, there are too many iconic d and d monsters that can't be destroyed without magical items.

4. Whose history, literature and movies?

5. Are we talking LOTR elves, LOTR movie elves?, Troll the movie elves? or any of the 100 other versions in the world?

 

[painandgreed]

1. No feats? What makes one 4th level knight different from another 4th level knight. My suggestion would be to actually illiminate class abilities and rely more on class specific feats.

2. Easier how? Just ability scores? They've seemed to combine too many as it is.

3. Can't be helped, there are too many iconic d and d monsters that can't be destroyed without magical items.

I always thought they should do a Basic D&D again. Simply the base four classes with default feats and skills and some simple monsters and combat rules that could fit into one book which would fulfill those criteria. It would be good for beginners and maybe a few who wanted a real simple game, but most people would go "advanced" I think.

 

[Shazman]

Well if they do do a 4th edition, it better be compatible with 3.5. Having to re-buy core books plus splat books would not make me happy. I would say they should have a simplified basic beginnger book that is essential the core book with basic classes,feats, equipment, and spells and classic monsters plus DM information like magic items and exp charts. Maybe simplify feats and multiclassing a bit with charaters being able to upgrade current abilities or get new ones each time they level. Have fewer feats that scale in power with level instead of having to get 5 or 6 feats to get the desiired result. Then new more intersting stuff can be added with splat books. People can stay simple or go crazy. But don't over simplify it or you get 2nd editions: I attac. I do thiis much damage over and over again, no tactics ,no strategy, no flavor, no options, no fun

 

[Clavis]

1. No feats? What makes one 4th level knight different from another 4th level knight. My suggestion would be to actually illiminate class abilities and rely more on class specific feats.

2. Easier how? Just ability scores? They've seemed to combine too many as it is.

3. Can't be helped, there are too many iconic d and d monsters that can't be destroyed without magical items.

4. Whose history, literature and movies?

5. Are we talking LOTR elves, LOTR movie elves?, Troll the movie elves? or any of the 100 other versions in the world?

1. I suggest one knight could be ROLE-PLAYED differently from another. Of course those those who want feats should still have that option, but they should be an optional add-on, not something integral to the game. Once upon a time people had fun without feats...

2. Easier perhaps by simply defining a set of skills for each character class, with one or two that can be swappped-out to customize. Rather than have ranks by default , let skills be tied to character level more directly. The current, complicated system should be an add-on option for those who are inclined that way. This way character creation doesn't consist of 2 hours of utter boredom while people balance skill points. Of course, I still think skills per se should be optional, and most action resolved with ability checks.

3. No, I'm not referrring to monsters that can only be hot by magic or silver (which have existed from the beginning), but the ridiculous uber-monsters that lack all aesthetic unity.

4. The canon of Western fantasy (Dunsany, Howard, Lovecraft, Leiber, Vance, Moorcock, Tolkien); the Arthurian legends; the legends of Charlemagne; and Greek, Norse and Celtic mythology should be the ground. I would even include more recent fantasy (such as the Harry Potter books) that are going to influence how the next generation of gamers views magic and fantastic creatures.

5. I mean classic D & D elves, the kind that human adventurers lust after, are supposed to be pretty. The 3.X edition ones are just plain ugly.

 

[Nifft]

5. Are we talking LOTR elves, LOTR movie elves?, Troll the movie elves? or any of the 100 other versions in the world?

Liv Tyler. We need her to be the new elf iconic.

And Angelina Jolie as Lidda. Aw yeah.

Cheers, -- N

 

[VirgilCaine]

5) NO MORE SPIKY ANYTHING!

I've always been confused about why spikes channeling blows into your armor is necessarily bad. I mean, that's why you're wearing armor. Either the blow would have hit you anyway or it made a close miss into a glancing blow.

NO MORE DOUBLE WEAPONS THAT WOULD KILL ANYONE THAT USED THEM!

Most people wear armor in combat, making this not a fatal problem.

AND GODDAMMIT, ELVES ARE SUPPOSED TO BE PRETTY, NOT BUG-EYED ALIENS!

I don't use elves in my campaigns (at least not as PCs), and dislike them, so more ugly elf pictures!