Concerned about paladins.

[Otterscrubber]

They seem to be very underpowered compared to other classes. Their mark only affects one target and they lack compelling excellence in any one category it seems to me. This invariably leads me to want to play another class after playing with a heroic level paladin in my campaign after a pretty short period of time. I can only get into the roleplay awesomeness of a pally for so long.

Did they mess up on paladins? Is there a fix in store or are they just going to be for people who want to roleplay a paladin? Or am I missing something?

 

[Amaroq]

I kinda agree; I'm DM'ing a paladin-player and she's a bit frustrated with the in-combat aspects of the character so far (mid-heroic).

I'm planning to buff her up with magical plate, some undead enemies (yay radiant), and some form of epic destiny that we hint at now, so we'll see how that goes.

I also "gave back" the "Detect Evil" power from previous editions, not in a "Hey, glancing at that guy in the bar, you know he's evil" version, but in a kind of limited-radar form .. "You can sense a great evil from within the obsidian tower .." and maybe once inside, "Now that you're inside the tower, you can sense one - or is it two - strong sources of evil above you, and another deep in the bowels of the earth beneath."

I'm also figuring on giving her a bad-ass mount in a couple of levels, so she feels a lot closer to old-school paladins.

I'd say "I'll let you know" but as we play once a fortnight, it'll be a while before we get far enough to really judge.

 

[Zaran]

Their damage output might not be the best but they are really hard to hit. Also the domain feats in the Divine Powers book are useful in boosting at-wills.

I also think that the class is probably best in campaigns where fighting undead is common.

 

[Brig]

Are you using Divine Power. Paladins got a real big boost from that book. I allowed the paladin in my game to retool his character completely when that book came out in order to ease his dissatisfaction with the class. I can say that character is a certain force to be reckoned with.

 

[DracoSuave]

In terms of defensive paladins, the out-of-book Charismadin was always a powerful force to be reckoned with... enfeebling strike is a damn good ability to have in your pocket as an at-will.

However, with DP, offensive paladins have gotten a huge boost as well.

 

[Mengu]

Did they mess up on paladins? Is there a fix in store or are they just going to be for people who want to roleplay a paladin? Or am I missing something?

Yes, there is a fix. It's called Divine Power. Lots of fixes in there:

Numerous ways to inflict your divine sanction upon multiple enemies. To give an easy at-will example, you can use Ardent Strike on one enemy and divine challenge on another adjacent enemy and easily have two targets marked. Various encounter powers and utilities can mark all enemies in a burst 3 or so.

Strength Paladins can add their Strength mod instead of Charisma for Divine Challenge damage (though it costs a feat).

Ardent Paladins can give up lay on hands for more damage, providing a better striker build.

Devoted Paladin fixes Healing Hands, doing the exact same thing, plus giving the paladin an extra healing surge to heal his allies with.

Untiring Virtue gives even more uses of Lay on Hands, Ardent Vow, etc.

Honored Foe gives the paladin considerable resilience against his marks.

 

[Turtlejay]

Paladins are just different from other defenders. Some of those differences are good, like their mark. They have no need to remark if they remain engaged, but they can change their mark if they wish. The mark requires *no action* to trigger, so if an enemy breaks the conditions, he takes damage. That can be very, very nice, and can add up over the course of a fight.

Bad things? They aren't really sticky at all, and a condition that makes in difficult or impossible to 'engage' their marked target will end the mark. Strength Paladins must take a feat to make their mark work right, and that feat does not help Divine Sanction marks at all.

Aside from the mark, they are very solid characters. Their Lay Hands (or similar ability, depending on your build) is great, they have the highest AC available, solid At-wills (IMO), and high HP's.

All that said, I played a Paladin pre-DP and ended up frustrated with his anemic mark. Now that I have looked at the options available to him, I'd be more than willing to try him out again.

Jay

 

[Mistwell]

Paladins were underpowered when all they had was the PHB to go on.

Once the supplement books came out, they shot up the ranks to near the top of the list for defenders, in my opinion.

So yes, Divine Sanction is your friend. Just work on putting all the feats and new powers and equipment and such into place, and you will eventually find they shake out to be quite potent.

 

[yesnomu]

Virtue's Touch is a very nice option for a Pally as well, since stunned is such a nasty effect. Even Clerics and Shamans can use the MC feat, since it only needs 15 Wisdom.

 

[Merlin the Tuna]

FWIW, CharOp generally considers Paladins to be the most powerful defender in the game at the moment, due largely to their ability to punish multiple enemies via Divine Challenge/Sanction in a turn -- while Fighters and company may be sticky, their marks still require Immediate actions, which means you can only tag one of your marks per round.