Concerning Tanar'ri Summoning

[Nebrok]

NOTE: I am using 3.5 edition

According to the Monster Manual all Tanar'ri can summon other Tanar'ri, but it doesn’t mention anything about duration. So here's the question:

If no duration is given, is it safe to assume that it has no duration?

If there is no duration, then couldn't the summoned tanar'ri be counted for experience since it could continue without the other?
(The summoned tanar'ri could be bound to the original and disappears after the first is dead, but that is not mentioned at all in the book.)

I always thought that the 35% chance of success represented the chance that another tanar'ri was WILLING to be summoned, and that failure means that none were willing to answer the call. Going on that logic the summoned tanar'ri isn't bound to the will of the first and only does what it is told because that is what it decided to do when it accepted being summoned. It answers the summons because it expects a favor in return, after all it states in the book "...between their arrogance and distain for owing favors to one another, tanar'ri are often reluctant to use this power until in obvious peril or extreme circumstances,"

Anyways, Back to the topic. Another thing that is NOT covered in the book (as far as I can see) is whether or not the summoned tanar'ri can use it's summon ability. I don't see anything that specifically states they can NOT, so...

That can open a whole new can of beans. If a tanar'ri summoned in this manner is brought to the current location can potentially summon others, which could mean a single tanar'ri could (potentially) spawn a whole lot of them. Then if you consider the summoning permanent then a single tanar'ri could over the course of several days (the ability is usable once a day) summon an entire force. Other the course of an extended period of time, like a few months, you could have a full blown invasion.

However, I suppose that even if you considered this possibility it would be unlikely. The book already stated that tanar'ri are reluctant to use this ability and demons in general are to chaotic to mount such an effort without some serious focus. Besides, the blood war probably distract from any serious invasion attempt on the marital plane.

Anyhow... let me know what you think. I would like to hear other thoughts on this.

P.S. If i missed anything please feel free to point out page numbers.

 

[LostSoul]

I always figured they were Summoned, not Called, so they would remain for 1 round per caster level. Since it's a Supernatural ability, that's the same as HD, since it's not otherwise spelled out. Looking more closely, there's no reason to assume that duration, so I guess they hang out until they die (and are sent back to their home plane).

Since they are Summoned, they can't Summon other creatures, so there's no Balor chain coming down on you.

 

[Alzrius]

Allow me to direct your attention here (emphasis mine):

A creature with the summon ability can summon specific other creatures of its kind much as though casting a summon monster spell, but it usually has only a limited chance of success (as specified in the creature’s entry). Roll d%: On a failure, no creature answers the summons. Summoned creatures automatically return whence they came after 1 hour. A creature that has just been summoned cannot use its own summon ability for 1 hour. Most creatures with the ability to summon do not use it lightly, since it leaves them beholden to the summoned creature. In general, they use it only when necessary to save their own lives. An appropriate spell level is given for each summoning ability for purposes of Concentration checks and attempts to dispel the summoned creature. No experience points are awarded for summoned monsters.

 

[SonofaKyuss]

Elimination of the Monster Summoning Cascade has already been addresssed....

From the SRD: Monsters/Types, Subtypes, & Special Abilities section.

Summon (Sp): A creature with the summon ability can summon specific other creatures of its kind much as though casting a summon monster spell, but it usually has only a limited chance of success (as specified in the creature’s entry). Roll d%: On a failure, no creature answers the summons. Summoned creatures automatically return whence they came after 1 hour. A creature that has just been summoned cannot use its own summon ability for 1 hour. Most creatures with the ability to summon do not use it lightly, since it leaves them beholden to the summoned creature. In general, they use it only when necessary to save their own lives. An appropriate spell level is given for each summoning ability for purposes of Concentration checks and attempts to dispel the summoned creature. No experience points are awarded for summoned monsters.

End Communication

 

[Nebrok]

Alzrius, after reading that I realize that I have seen that before. I realize no that is quotes from the Monster Manual in the glossary. I figured I had missed/forgot somthing. Thanks for pointing that out.

 

[LostSoul]

Nice work guys, I didn't know that either.

 

[Belzbet]

They are summoned until killed I think that is obvious (meaning I think the OP is right that there is no duration, just because its a summoning effect DOES NOT mean it automatically has a duration) BUT since its a summoning effect they never really die (since a summoned creature doesnt "die")...

This also explains why it is so deadly to call a demon or devil since 1 demon/devil will turn into many many demons/devils due to summon fiend (MOST demons and devils WANT to be on the material plane wrecking havoc)... Essentially 1 fiend can bring hundreds of fiends once its called due to the recursive ability to summon fiends that dont seem to have a duration...

What is funny is that all you need is 576 legion devils and a modest amount of cold iron and silver weapons and good and evil aligned weapons and you can rule the world legion devils are just that OP... Only pun pun and those types of builds can screw with well equipped legion devils, legion devils are the sole reason that i my campaign devils rule supreme (althopugh it is easy enough to create a creature that works like legion devil but that is say an angel or better yet archons (the lawful good celestials) BUT NO OTHER CREATURE has been printed by WotC that is just that badass)... 576 legion devils that are well equip (meaning that can get through DR of the creature they are fighting) are unstoppable (I say 576 because that is how many medium creatures can fit in a 60ft radius)... 576X4 equals 2304, 576X19 equals 10,944... that is insane

also out of 576 creatures at least 1 would make a nat 20 on a save in a round so legion devils are immune to mind affecting as well (so its almost impossible to control the legion devil unless it is in a contingency low in number

 

[Oryan77]

A bit of fluff to add to this because it is often overlooked in place of pure mechanical rules:

Creatures hate to be summoned. Especially fiendish ones. Fiends don't use their summoning ability willy-nilly. They only use it in desperation, or if they are sure that they can deal with the creature if the summoned fiend comes looking for them later on for revenge.

So just because the Monster Manual says they have the ability, it doesn't mean they will use it in an encounter.

This can also be used to spice up an encounter with some roleplaying. PCs might get a kick out of hearing a summoned fiend threaten his fiendish summoner during the encounter that he is being commanded, "You will regret summoning me to do your bidding Astapheen. My minions will hunt you down if these creatures do not kill you first; and I will enjoy feeling your sour flesh between my teeth when we feast upon your living shell!"

 

[Belzbet]

A bit of fluff to add to this because it is often overlooked in place of pure mechanical rules:

Creatures hate to be summoned. Especially fiendish ones. Fiends don't use their summoning ability willy-nilly. They only use it in desperation, or if they are sure that they can deal with the creature if the summoned fiend comes looking for them later on for revenge.

So just because the Monster Manual says they have the ability, it doesn't mean they will use it in an encounter.

This can also be used to spice up an encounter with some roleplaying. PCs might get a kick out of hearing a summoned fiend threaten his fiendish summoner during the encounter that he is being commanded, "You will regret summoning me to do your bidding Astapheen. My minions will hunt you down if these creatures do not kill you first; and I will enjoy feeling your sour flesh between my teeth when we feast upon your living shell!"

Good point creatures hate to be summoned in GENERAL BUT imagine this scenario: a demon is called by a wizard it then uses its 35% EACH day to summon 1 creature.. Those creatures would JUMP on the opportunity to with mortals so may be the summoned fiends would WANT TO BE SUMMONED , remember most fiends like being on the mateiral plane more than the abyss or the nine hells (since they can exert more control on the material plane than their own plane, since most fiends MUST defer the their superiors its not to fun)

 

[Oryan77]

Good point creatures hate to be summoned in GENERAL BUT imagine this scenario: a demon is called by a wizard it then uses its 35% EACH day to summon 1 creature.. Those creatures would JUMP on the opportunity to with mortals so may be the summoned fiends would WANT TO BE SUMMONED , remember most fiends like being on the mateiral plane more than the abyss or the nine hells (since they can exert more control on the material plane than their own plane, since most fiends MUST defer the their superiors its not to fun)

The only thing is that a summoned monster can't use it's own summon ability. It is only summoned for 1 hour, and can't use it's own summon ability for 1 hour, so it has no time to use its summon ability.

Also, a summoned creature cannot act on it's own free will in a way that goes against what the summoner wants it to do. It is under full control of the summoner. So a summoner would never allow the summoned creature to do something that would threaten the summoner.