D&D 5E Conerning Gnomes (+thread. please don't crap the thread with anti-gnome negativity)

[Zardnaar]

They used to be good as the intelligence buff in AD&D was unique in the phb.

Intelligence is kinda weak in 5E though and only benefits 1 class and is a tertiary stat for two archetype s.

Tieflings don't have the best package either but Mirdemkainens takes care of that.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

Critter speak has the potential be be hugely beneficial, but the issues I have with it are it works best with spells like Conjure Animals (because they become much more effective scouts if you can talk to them at will). However, that gnome's stats don't line up well with a druid. I wish they had a bonus to Wisdom instead of Dex or Int.

I mean it works fine with just having good persuasion, as well. And makes falconer rangers interesting. (As long as your DM is nice about your pet or uses the revised ranger or otherwise helps you keep it alive)

but conceptually i agree that forest gnomes should be better druids than they are. As a DM I’d consider allowing a wisdom boost rather than wisdom, or since I don’t view druids as divine in my worlds/games, using Int for casting. But, honestly, I don’t think 5e needs you to match race to class all that much.

Then again, I also think that Druidic should allow you to speak with animals and without a spell, and maybe trees, too. Even if it had to be a tier 2 ability, I’d be okay with that.

In my current campaign, a rock gnome's clockwork toys will be more useful than speaking with small animals because it's an urban campaign.

I agree that what is useful is going to be campaign dependent, but what works for one campaign won't work for yours. At the same time, I don't think that all races need to be balanced as long as they have their own unique flavor.

I’m fine with races not being perfectly balanced, but a tool and a ribbon isn’t much for a subrace, and the reason I brought up that shortage is simply that it means there is plenty of room in the rock gnome to also be able to speak with critters.

As to the urban campaign...rats, birds, racoons, cats, and insects, are all small or smaller beasts. Speaking with them is incredible in an urban campaign.

Really, the thing with rock gnomes is that the 5e forrest gnome pretty much has the abilities of previous-edition rock gnomes, and 5e rock gnomes have inherited the tinker qualities of the Dragonlance gnomes to a minor extant (that didn't exist in the AD&D gnomes apart from that setting).

I've only seen a handful of gnomes in games that I've played or DM in (I've never played a gnome), but they've always been played seriously. I've got to say, that I fell in love with the depiction of gnomes in Paizo's Golarion setting, and have pretty much adopted that depiction (for the most part) for the settings that I run.

Im not familiar with the Golarion depiction, can you give a tl:dr of why you love them so much? I’d also love to hear about your favorite non-silly Gnome PCs!

First, I don’t think Gnome Cunning takes up that much design space. It’s conditional advantage on one good save and two bad ones. IMO, that’s worth the same as a cantrip. It’s just that Gnome is the lightest base-race in the PHB. Most of the value is in the subraces.

Second, I think the clockwork toy is meant to have combat applicability, given that it specifies movement “on each of your turns”. This should at least distract any opponent with which it interacts, giving you or an ally advantage on attacks. Of course, the game leaves it up to the DM, but I’d say that in any game where the DM doesn’t rule that a rock gnome can reliably use its clockwork toy in combat, you’re better off playing a forest gnome.

Ive never seen anyone try to do that. Interesting.

 

[Mistwell]

Then again, I also think that Druidic should allow you to speak with animals and without a spell, and maybe trees, too. Even if it had to be a tier 2 ability, I’d be okay with that.

Oh I really like that idea.

 

[Ralif Redhammer]

Gnome fan here. Had a gnome cleric character named Galidor “Stitch” Oortvliet a few years ago and enjoyed playing a cranky old gnome.

Increasingly, I’ve been gravitating to them as a less stereotyped dwarf (my #1 fantasy race). I feel like they can occupy some of that same territory without all the bad Scottish accents and other baggage that gets in the way.

Although…I know you said no negativity, but I’m currently painting a gnome miniature and I haven’t painted anything that small in years! It’s really been a test of my somewhat minimal miniature-painting skills.

 

[LuisCarlos17f]

We need to make a difference between the bluff and the crunch, the lore and the gameplay.

Gnomes could be very popular in the hands of the right author. I would dare to say in the future we will see more gnomes PCs with a crossbow and Lannister surname.

But the racial traits have to be fixed. They are right if you want a illusionist spellcaster or a stealth class, but not more. I guess we need an option list of class features, like that Class Act article "Martial cultures" from Dragon Magazine 341, where the spell-like abilities were replaced with others.

In Pathfinder 2 the racial traits are replaced by optional racial feats.

I like the idea of the gnome as tamer of rider of a "monster pet". I miss the Savage Species sourcebook, one of my favorite although it was before 3.5.

 

[Swarmkeeper]

Critter speak has the potential be be hugely beneficial, but the issues I have with it are it works best with spells like Conjure Animals (because they become much more effective scouts if you can talk to them at will). However, that gnome's stats don't line up well with a druid. I wish they had a bonus to Wisdom instead of Dex or Int.

In 5e, the Conjured Animals are considered Fey so, RAW, the Speak with Small Beasts power of Forest Gnomes doesn't apply.

 

[Tallifer]

In my Eberron campaign, I added Cookie Gnomes in underground caverns who work with Mushroom Men; also, gypsy Garden Gnomes who use the Draconic Prophecy with rainbow-coloured tarot cards.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

In 5e, the Conjured Animals are considered Fey so, RAW, the Speak with Small Beasts power of Forest Gnomes doesn't apply.

RAW isn’t particularly important.

 

[GlassJaw]

I'm also in the camp that gnomes in 5E need...something. I don't think they are "underpowered" per se, but aside from wizard builds, they don't bring much else to the table compared to the other races. As someone else mentioned, that certainly has some to do with the lackluster Intelligence score. But in general, gnomes seem to be the odd race out.

In 3e, they were much more versatile. They had a +2 Con bonus, which was good for any class. Their small size made and skill bonuses made them good rogues, they had a bonus on illusion DCs, and even had some combat bonuses.

At the minimum, I would redo their stat bonuses. I like the idea of a Con bonus and then give the Rock gnome a +1 Int. I even like the idea of giving the Forest Gnome a +1 Wis to make it a better choice for druids and clerics.

I know the designers shied away from offering too many choices during character creation but I'm a big fan of offering racial stat choices. I could even see something like this:

Gnome Traits: +2 Dex or +2 Con
Forest Gnome: +1 Wis
Rock Gnome: +1 Int

Even without changing anything else, this opens up a TON of class options for the gnome. I could see adding some other racial spell options too though.

 

[Fenris-77]

Being able to talk to rats in a urban campaign is about as useful as that ability gets IMO. Rats are everywhere and can get anywhere.

The Rock Gnome frankly sucks though. Tinker is flavor at best and generally bloody useless, and Artificer's Lore is neat, but really, really situational. I'll take critter talk and the cantrip every time. The Rock Gnome's total package isn't as good as either of the abilities forest gnomes get. I'm not completely married to optimization, and I have no problem playing a sub-optimal Race/class pairing if it fits the character I have in mind, but I don't think I could pull the trigger on Rock Gnome regardless of concept. That makes me sad, because I like Rock Gnomes.

Honestly, give them the mending cantrip, leave the critter talk in, plus the CON vs DEX and I'm pretty happy. Maybe give them advantage or expertise with Tinker's Tools, or even Artisan Tools generally or a subset of that list (at the expense of critter talk depending on breath of application).